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SANCHEZ DEPOSITION

Part 1B

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4 MR. GOFFE: The time, as indicated on the
5 screen, is 2:27, and we are back on the record.
6-12 (deleted)
13 Q. When your previous deposition was taken in the
14 case, on April 1, 1992, you were asked beginning --
15 on Page 150, beginning at line 10, "On how many
occasions
16 have you received reports or complaints of sexual abuse
by
17 a diocesan priest of the archidocese since you've been
18 archbishop?"
19 And your answer, beginning at line 13 was, "I'm
20 trying to go back. It's been almost 18 years and -- let's
21 see if I can -- allegations, I suppose that would be the
22 proper word, were probably made, I would say, four or
five
23 times that I can recall offhand."
24 The list that you've given us today, depending on how
25 one counts, was more like around 20. Can you offer any
Page 67
1 explanation for this apparent discrepancy in the
2 testimony?
3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I might add, for the
4 completeness of the record, the Archbishop's testimony
5 ended, "I would say, four or five times that I can recall
6 right offhand, and that's just trying to make a quick scan
7 of my memory."
8 A. I remember the deposition, on that occasion, and
9 your question -- it caught me right offhand as in a sense.
10 I don't recall either yourself or myself having any list,
11 such as we went through today. I was asked to recall
from
12 my memory, and I think what I was zeroing in on, Mr.
13 Pasternack, were any cases that we had dealt with
14 formally, not just allegations or accusations, but, you
15 know, things that had resulted in some type of action.
16 The list that we dealt with today is actually quite
17 extensive. I don't know how many names you had. Many
I
18 said yes to; many I said no to. But it seems to me that
19 many of these people whose names that were included
on
20 there actually were not brought to my attention as the
21 archbishop but have since surfaced during all of these
22 investigations that have been taking place in the last
23 couple of years.
24 My estimate of approximately four or six was probably
25 close to accurate as to the number of cases that we have
Page 68
1 been involved in, but certainly not close to the total
2 number that we know now or that had been brought to
light
3 since that time that we're dealing with at this time.
4 Q. So do you mean to say that some of the people to
5 whom you indicated affirmatively a little while ago were
6 people that you've only learned about since the lawsuits
7 started to be filed?
8 A. Right, yes.
9 Q. A little later on, we'll go into each of those
10 people in some detail and see.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Now that we've taken a little break, have you
13 had an opportunity to reflect and see if there are any
14 other names that perhaps I didn't mention, but that you
15 now recall?
16 A. No, I didn't reflect in that direction, Mr.
17 Pasternack. But none came to my mind as you went
through
18 an alphabetical list.
19 Q. Okay. Well, perhaps it would be appropriate to
20 spend a little time trying to break down how many
occurred
21 before the lawsuits started being filed and after.
22 As you have previously testified, I'm sure that Jason
23 Sigler, as an offender, had come to your attention
24 A. Yes, surely.
25 Q. From the personnel file, I'm sure I can conclude
Page 69
1 that Arthur Perrault had come to your attention as a sex
2 offender before the lawsuits?
3 A. No. The memory that I had of Art Perrault was
4 that no formal allegation had been made against him
until
5 it came to my attention a year ago in December, I
believe
6 it was, by a instance. And I was brought into
7 that situation, and that is what formally brought to my
8 mind, to my memory, Art Perrault.
9 I was unaware of any former or previous allegation,
10 although I know that in an interview with one of the TV
11 commentators, he had a woman on who said that she
had come
12 to me, and I'm not denying that she may have come to
me,
13 but I simply could not recall, and actually right now, I
14 do not recall that. But that's not to say that she did
15 not come to me.
16 Q. Archbishop, yesterday, counsel for the
17 Archidocese faxed to us letters that had been written
from
18 Dr. Joseph VanDenHeuvel to you about Arthur Perrault's
19 sexual disorder in 1981, in 1985. Does that help you
20 recall that you did, in fact, know of his sexual disorder
21 in those times?
22 A. It does. It helps to this degree: That I had
23 asked Arthur Perrault to see Dr. VanDenHeuvel and to
24 continue maintenance therapy with him. And I honestly
25 cannot recall why I had asked him to begin at that time
or
Page 70
1 what incident had happened either in his life or in a
2 surrounding areA. But I had not -- at the time that we
3 had this interview, I could not recall anyone coming in
4 and alleging Art Perrault having violated that.
5 Q. Archbishop, do you recall even students at
6 St. Pius when you were a teacher there approaching you
and
7 telling you that Arthur Perrault had molested them?
8 A. Students did not approach me at St. Pius, Mr.
9 Pasternack. I was at St. Pius simultaneously with Arthur
10 Perrault for about a year to a year and a half at most,
11 and then I left the school. He remained. But students
12 did not come to me personally to complain about him.
13 Q. Is that something you recall and adamantly deny
14 or you simply don't remember?
15 A. Both. I have no recall of anything of that
16 nature. I don't know why they would have come to me to
17 begin with. I was not the principal or anyone in
18 authority to have been able to act in that direction. So
19 I just don't think that would have happened. Unless you
20 have some information from people who said they came.
But
21 I do not recall anything.
22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, in the
23 interest of completeness in this deposition, if you do
24 have such information, we'd urge you at this time to
share
25 it with the archbishop, so that he can use that
Page 71
1 information to perhaps refresh his recollection of events
2 that occurred years and years ago, and maybe we can be
3 more complete and more accurate and assist you in
finding
4 the complete and accurate truth here. And he's willing to
5 do that, if you have any documents you care to share with
6 us at this time as to this issue or any other issue in the
7 deposition. The archbishop is happy to read those
8 carefully and review them.
9 Q. Archbishop, the Clive Lynn matter had been
10 brought to your attention before the lawsuits, hadn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the Ed Donnollan matter had been brought to
13 your attention before the lawsuits?
14 A. Except -- the Ed Donnollan matter was not an
15 allegation or an accusation. There was -- the biggest
16 dispute that took place, at least that I can recall
17 regarding that issue was a ranch for boys that he was
18 operating at that time. And if I recall correctly, it was
19 the --
20 Q. Hacienda De Los Muchachos in Farley, New
Mexico?
21 A. You've got it. Hacienda De Los Muchachos in
22 Farley, New Mexico, and I believe it was the -- or at
23 least a branch of the New Mexico Health and Social
24 Services, whatever it was called at that time, that had
25 contacted me about what they felt were serious
Page 72
1 administrative shortcomings in the Ranch. I had received
2 some communication from people I believe who worked
with
3 him at that time. I can't recall all of the contents.
4 But I know they were disturbed over the Ranch, and I had
5 to take serious steps, and I closed the Ranch, in fact,
6 and moved him out of that situation, so that whatever
7 shortcomings were occurring would not continue.
8 Q. And did part of those shortcomings include
9 allegations of sexual contact between Ed Donnollan and
the
10 inmate boys at Hacienda De Los Muchachos?
11 A. There was no specific allegation regarding any
12 individual boys that I can recall. I don't recall there
13 was ever any names given to me regarding that. There
may
14 have been, and I would have to see the documents.
15 Q. Do you remember generally allegations having
16 been made about sexual contact between Father Ed and
the
17 boys?
18 A. There may have been general allegations made. I
19 would have to say that, yes.
20 Q. And that was before lawsuits started being
21 filed?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Because you closed down Father Ed's by about
24 1970 -- excuse me 1976, didn't you?
25 A. '76, I think that's about the time it was. I
Page 73
1 don't recall exactly when, but I think it was around '76.
2 But Father Ed Donnollan would not have been one I
3 would have put in that category when I was trying to
think
4 back as to the number of people. He just did not occur to
5 me.
6 Q. The events with Roger Martinez, fathering the
7 child, that would have been before the lawsuits started
8 being filed?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And I presume that you made sure that he
11 acknowledged paternity and paid child support?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The events with John Esquivel would have
14 occurred before the lawsuits and these cases started
being
15 filed, wouldn't they?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And did John Esquivel, also at your direction,
18 acknowledge paternity and pay child support?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You know he's under indictment now, don't you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Yes. All right. And Sabine Griego, you knew
23 about those allegations long before lawsuits started
being
24 filed, didn't you?
25 A. Not before this took place, no.
Page 74
1 Q. Well, didn't you, in fact, visit him at
2 Southdown in 1991?
3 A. Those allegations were brought to my attention
4 in about September of '91, I guess it was, September of
5 '91. And he was removed from his pastorship
immediately,
6 and he went to Southdown, then, for his therapy, and I
7 visited there for the exit interview, which they always
8 ask the superior to come for an exit interview of their
9 candidates, and I went there for that, it must have been
10 in March of '92.
11 Q. The first of these lawsuits was filed in August
12 of '91. So you're saying that after the first of the
13 lawsuits was filed, but before the majority of them, was
14 when you learned about these allegations with regard to
15 Sabine Griego?
16 A. The information came to our attention in -- I'm
17 almost certain it was September of 91.
18 Q. Okay. In fact, hadn't you removed Sabine Griego
19 from Our Lady of Sorrows in Las Vegas and put him
down at
20 Queen of Heaven in Albuquerque because of similar
21 allegations?
22 A. No. Oh, no. No, that was a personnel board
23 action. It is customary to transfer our priests every six
24 to 10 years. They have that right. If they're assigned
25 as pastors, they may continue in that pastorship for a
Page 75
1 minimum of six years, or longer if it's judged that they
2 should remain. But it's not that they're going to remain
3 in anyone parish forever. So his transfer that took place
4 in our personnel board was like all the other pastors'
5 transfers. "You've been in that one area long enough. We
6 need you and your administrative abilities in another
7 parish that's larger now, and we're going to move to you
8 this parish." And that is what took place when he was
9 transferred from Our Lady of Sorrows.
10 Q. Did you learn about Bob Smith before or after
11 these lawsuits started to be filed in August of '91?
12 A. In effect, I had learned of Father Bob Smith --
13 an allegation had been made in the -- I think mid '80s,
14 around 1986 or so. And I did remove him from his parish
15 and asked him to go for treatment. He never returned to
16 parish work after that. In fact, it led to him being
17 placed in a nursing home, and eventually he died. He
had
18 been suffering from severe sugar diabetes and other
19 chronic illnesses, and so he died that way.
20 He had been dead for a number of years, I think, when
21 you asked this question, and his -- I wasn't able to
22 recall him to mind at that time.
23 Q. Did you learn about before or
24 after August of '91?
25 A. The allegations that led to my removing him from
Page 76
1 his parish took place in the fall of '91.
2 Q. And you had heard no allegations about sexual
3 impropriety involving Father before fall of '91;
4 is that right?
5 A. There had been one general statement made by a
6 lady, and I had that investigated by a team, I guess I
7 would call it, or a committee of three of our priests.
8 They met with the family, and then they met with the
9 priest and confronted him. And the final result was that
10 there had been, I guess, indiscretions. He had acted
11 foolishly, but they did not feel that there was enough
12 evidence to say that any violation of the individual had
13 occurred. And so he was not removed from his pastorship
14 lacking that information.
15 Q. Were these findings of foolishness made before
16 August of '91?
17 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I believe it was
18 indiscretion.
19 A. Oh, yes, those that occurred, like I said, in
20 19 -- in the mid '80s. I don't exactly recall.
21 Q. And who was the three-man team who investigated
22 these allegations?
23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you remember,
24 Archbishop.
25 A. You may have documents on that. I'm sure that
Page 77
1 it was probably in documents. I don't remember the team
2 right offhand.
3 Q. All right. Did you first learn of any
4 allegations of sexual impropriety by
5 before or after August of '91?
6 A. Before August of '91.
7 Q. ?
8 A. Not until -- in fact, the allegations came
9 against him after I had left in '93.
10 Q. Barney Bissonette?
11 A. No formal allegations had been brought to me
12 prior to that time.
13 Q. Any informal allegations?
14 A. Just general statements. He was no longer a
15 priest of the archidocese, had not been a priest of our
16 archidocese since 1983, and so I simply did not include
17 him in my own reflection either. He belonged to the
18 Diocese of Las Cruces.
19 Q. But had you been advised in any fashion prior to
20 August of '91 that he may have been a sex offender?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. PASTERNACK: Do you want to change the
23 tape, Mr. Goffe?
24 MR. GOFFE: The time is 2:45. This will be
25 the end of tape 1 in the deposition of Archbishop
Sanchez.
Page 78
1 [A recess was taken.]
2 MR. GOFFE: The time is 2:50 PM. This is
3 the beginning of tape number 2 in the deposition of
4 Archbishop Sanchez. We are on the record.
5 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Archbishop, did you learn
6 about allegations involving before August
7 of 1991?
8 A. Yes. It was public knowledge.
9 Q. Did you learn about Father and his
10 departure from the priesthood to marry prior to August of
11 1991?
12 A. Oh, yes. But I wouldn't include him in this
13 kind of a list, because it wasn't an allegation against
14 him.
15 Q. All right.
16 A. This was a decision a man made to change his
17 life, and so he left the priesthood and was no longer part
18 of the archidocese for that number of years. So I really
19 don't believe he belongs on that list.
20 Q. Now, he was raised with you in Socorro, wasn't
21 he?
22 A. Yes, he was. Just like you had your childhood
23 friends, he was one. He was ahead of me about three
24 years.
25 Q. Did you learn about before
Page 79
1 August of '91?
2 A. I believe so. I think it may be borderline, but
3 it may have come earlier than August. It may have been
4 right just before that time.
5 Q. Did you learn about the allegations involving
6 Father before August of '91?
7 A. I believe they came in before, but it wasn't
8 allegations to me. Like I said, this went to his
9 religious community to handle. So I did not consider that
10 as something that I was handling directly.
11 Q. Did you learn about the allegations of involving
12 Father prior to August of '91?
13 A. I just don't recall when that came in, to be
14 honest with you. It may very well have come before
August
15 of '91. But I can't recall the year that it did come in.
16 Q. Did the allegations come in before his death?
17 A. Yes, it came in before his death. He died, I
18 guess it was last winter, winter of '92, yes.
19 Q. Do you recall the name of the complainant or the
20 circumstances of the complaint?
21 A. I don't recall the name at all. And I really --
22 I would be just conjecturing of what a complaint would
be,
23 so it wouldn't be right to say it.
24 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you'd like to refresh
25 his recollection in that regard, Mr. Pasternack, we'd be
Page 80
1 happy to preview some documents, if you're interested in
2 the thoroughness of this deposition.
3 Q. Did you learn about allegations against Father
4 Rutowski prior to August of '91?
5 A. Yes, I believe it had come in a few months
6 before that time.
7 Q. Did Father Ignacio Tafoya tell you that the
8 allegations against him had been before '91?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you have your conversation with Father
11 about his drink at the Ranch, or whatever gay bar it was,
12 before August of '91?
13 A. I don't believe so.
14 Q. Or Father ?
15 A. I don't believe so.
16 Q. All right. Archbishop, that's approximately 15
17 priests about whom you had heard allegations before
August
18 of 1991. To put that into context, when you were
19 archbishop, was there a typical number of diocesan
priests
20 serving in the Archidocese of Santa Fe at a given time?
21 A. A typical number?
22 Q. Well, for example, were there usually 100 to
23 150, 90 to 100, something like that?
24 MS. KENNEDY: Before you answer,
25 Archbishop, I have an objection to your last question,
Mr.
Page 81
1 Pasternack. The list that you have given us has been
2 under the aegis of it differing from deposition testimony.
3 The question in the deposition testimony was,
"Archbishop,
4 on how many different occasions have you received
reports
5 or complaints of sexual abuse by a diocesan priest of this
6 archidocese since you've been archbishop?"
7 Now, the archbishop has demonstrated in his last
8 answer that at least one of the people on this list was
9 not a diocesan priest. Also, you have included in this
10 list individuals who have fathered children, and there
has
11 been no indication, at least in the record to date, that
12 those were occasions of how the term "sexual abuse" is
13 normally used.
14 So I object to your question as it
15 mischaracterizing a similarity between your list and the
16 question you asked in the deposition previously taken in
17 another matter.
18 Q. Yes, Archbishop, the question was about how many
19 priests of the archidocese, as opposed to priests who
were
20 members of the religious orders, would serve here at any
21 given time during your tenure as archbishop.
22 A. We would have approximately, oh, 100 and, I'd
23 say around 105 five, 110 active and then those who were
24 retired, and I include them because they also help out,
25 even though they are in a retired status. Probably an
Page 82
1 additional 20. So maybe we had about 130 diocesan
2 priests, yes. And that's been pretty constant, I would
3 say, in my years.
4 Q. Did the fact that anywhere between maybe eight
5 and 12 percent of the active priests had at one time or
6 another been presented to you as being sexually active in
7 one way or another cause you any concern?
8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: That percentage,
9 mischaracterizes the evidence, Mr. Pasternack. These
10 priests, there are 105 active at any time, 105 to 110
11 active at any time. You have over the course of perhaps
12 the 19-year tenure of the archbishop selected maybe 10
to
13 15 priests. Over the 19-year tenure of the archbishop,
14 more than 105 to 110 priests passed through the
15 archidocese.
16 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
17 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: So that percentage would
18 be much lower.
19 A. Yes. Over a period of those years in which I
20 served, by '91, was 17 years that I had served as the
21 archbishop, many priests had retired and were no longer
22 active. Others had died obviously. Some had left this
23 areA. Religious communities had come and gone. The
total
24 number of priests serving here would rise and fall with
25 any given year. I don't know what the total number
would
Page 83
1 be if we added up all of those who had either died or
2 retired in those 17 years.
3 But what -- I think the point that you're making is
4 well taken, that it was even one priest who is breaking
5 his promise of living out a chaste life, that would be one
6 too many. Having 12 would be significant. But they all
7 did not happen at one time either. I think that a person
8 tries to deal with the illness of an individual as it
9 surfaces, and we try to deal with any allegation or
10 illness, if you want to call it, of the priest, his
11 spiritual illness, as it surfaced over those 17 years.
12 It wasn't like a plague had suddenly descended upon
13 the Archidocese of Santa Fe at one time. It was people
at
14 differing times being alleged to have broken their
promise
15 of celibacy or the promise of chastity.
16 Q. And forgive me again, but there would be one
17 more that we really should add to that list that you knew
18 of before August of '91?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Namely yourself?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When you did receive these allegations at --
23 well, let me ask you this first. I apologize. Would we
24 be able to find out through any archdiocesan records
how
25 many priests had, in fact, died or retired during that
Page 84
1 17-year period, so we can actually ascribe a percentage
to
2 the number of sexually active priests known by you to be
3 sexually active as a percentage of the overall number
4 serving during that era?
5 A. I am sure that that information could be
6 obtained. It would require finding the books that would
7 have a list of those priests going back. It may not be
8 real easy to do, but perhaps some research could come up
9 with something of that nature for you.
10 Q. What type of documents would we need to look at
11 in order to make that calculation?
12 A. I suppose a listing of priests for a given year
13 and those who had died, a list of those who had died.
14 Q. In effect, that would be in the directory that's
15 put out every year?
16 A. The national directory should have -- it should
17 have all of the deceased, and it should have all of the
18 active ones. I don't know if it has any listings for
19 those who may have left. That would have to be looked
at
20 closely.
21 Q. As these events were unfolding from 1974 to
22 1991, and you were learning that there were allegations
23 against Fhis father or that Father, did you ever have
24 occasion to call any bishops or archbishops around the
25 country and ask them, you know, "Is this happening to
you
Page 85
1 guys? And what do you do when you find out about this?"
2 A. I didn't call anyone directly regarding that
3 specific concern. I had occasion to speak with bishops,
4 as you might well imagine, at different meetings and
5 gatherings. But it wasn't that sexual activity among the
6 clergy was a principal focus of any discussion. I believe
7 that that focus did not really come around until probably
8 the late '80s, when pedophile cases began to surface in
9 the country, and then I think that the focus began to be
10 on that.
11 Q. What was the nature of your discussions with
12 bishops and archbishops? Was it an acknowledgement
that,
13 "Yes, priests do tend to yield to the temptations of the
14 flesh, and there's nothing we can do about it," or was
15 their direction to be more punitive? Can you
characterize
16 any of those conversations?
17 A. Like I just said, we didn't really discuss those
18 issues. That was not an object of discussion among the
19 bishops. When the issue surfaced in the late '80s, it was
20 strictly on pedophilia, not on simple, "How our priests
21 behaving? What's happening among priests today?"
22 There had been concern among the clergy and among
the
23 Church in the 1960s and early 1970s when a large
number of
24 the clergy were leaving the active ministry. And at that
25 time, the focus was on what is happening, why are so
many
Page 86
1 leaving to -- opting to get married and leaving their
2 priesthood. That became a major concern. But I don't
3 recall it surfacing as a concern in our discussions after
4 that time.
5 Q. Then let me ask what you knew. Before you
6 became archbishop and after you became archbishop, did
you
7 have an opinion about whether, in fact, priests all over
8 the country were failing at one time or another in
9 honoring their promise of chastity?
10 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: That's a compound
11 question, Mr. Pasternack. It's before or after he became
12 archbishop that you're asking for his opinion?
13 MR. PASTERNACK: I'll ask before and after.
14 If it's different, he can say.
15 A. I was of the opinion, as a priest in the 1960s,
16 that there were many priests who were not honoring their
17 promise of celibacy or chastity, due to the fact that
many
18 were leaving the priesthood. Some articles were
surfacing
19 that it was all right to date provided it was just a date.
20 And there was a lot of discussion in that area principally
21 in articles that would surface, and I have to say that
22 that disturbed me. It disturbed me, because I hated to
23 see priest friends of myself leave the priesthood. I had
24 classmates who were ordained with me who had left the
25 priesthood and that concerned me. I always felt it a very
Page 87
1 sad moment when I would receive a letter or phone call
2 from a classmate indicating that he had decided to leave
3 the priesthood so that he might marry. I would wish him
4 well and hope he would be happy, but it always hurt.
5 So I knew that some activity was going on among the
6 priests prior to my being named as an archbishop.
7 Q. And how about after?
8 A. After I was named as an archbishop, since it was
9 in nearly the mid '70s, there seemed to have been a halt
10 on the -- I'd call the exodus of priests leaving the
11 priesthood, and it seemed to have entered into some
type
12 of a -- things seemed to settle for a while, although
13 there was a period when several priests left, and we did
14 have a number of priests from our own archidocese who
15 asked -- who informed me, they didn't ask, but simply
16 informed me that they were choosing to leave the
17 priesthood, and they left. It hurt me personally because
18 two of them I had ordained as priests. And it just hurt
19 me to see them leave as young priests this way.
20 But I felt that there was less of a concern about
21 marriage as a possibility in their life as it had been in
22 the '60s and earlier '70s.
23 Q. Did you know before you became archbishop
24 whether there was an issue of concern, at least in your
25 mind, about priests around the country allegedly having
Page 88
1 sex with children?
2 A. No, I wasn't aware of that issue, priests having
3 sex with children. That wasn't really discussed. It
4 wasn't a common issue. The big issue was priests leaving
5 the priesthood for marriage.
6 Q. How about after you became archbishop; did it
7 become an issue? Did you begin to realize that there
were
8 allegations of priests having sex with children?
9 A. Not as a major issue, not until really the late
10 '80s. That is when it began to sort of mushroom as an
11 issue and a concern. But prior to that time, very little
12 was said of that issue, either in priest publications,
13 Catholic newspapers or the secular newspaper. It simply
14 wasn't a topic of major concern.
15 Q. In the media -- I want to make sure we
16 understand each other. I'm asking about what you knew
17 apart from what you saw in the papers --
18 A. Yes, right.
19 Q. -- whether you knew back to 1974 and thereafter,
20 that priests of the Santa Fe Archidocese were, in fact,
21 having sex with children?
22 A. No. Any type of allegation had been so rare
23 that it was not a major concern in my mind. I did not see
24 it as something major. I didn't know much about it. And
25 so I simply would not have been concerned. That was
not a
Page 89
1 major concern.
2 I think that when the issue regarding Jason Sigler
3 was brought to my attention, it was shocking to me. And
4 our action against the man had to be taken, but I don't
5 recall it as being a major concern in the 1970s, no.
6 Q. When you appointed the investigation committee,
7 like the one that looked into the initial allegations in
8 the '80s against Father , I'm wondering if
9 it didn't contain the same type of membership we saw in
10 the investigation committee about Bob Kirsch in 1989.
In
11 other words, that one of the investigators would have
been
12 the , namely ?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Do you believe that was one of
15 the investigators on the situation?
16 MS. KENNEDY: I'm going to instruct the
17 witness not to speculate. Archbishop, if you know who it
18 was, fine. But the Court and the lawyers and all the
19 parties involved do not want you to have to guess or
20 speculate.
21 MR. PASTERNACK: Mr. Winterbottom, do you
22 represent the archbishop?
23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I do, and I join in
24 that, that the archbishop shouldn't speculate. And if you
25 have some documents to help him refresh his
recollection
Page 90
1 in terms of who was on the committee, we've made a
2 standing offer for you to share those with the archbishop.
3 MR. PASTERNACK: The reason that I ask is
4 that Ms. Kennedy is giving him instructions. Do you
5 represent him, or does she represent him?
6 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I represent the
7 archbishop. Ms. Kennedy is free to represent the
8 archidocese and make the same objections to your
questions
9 if they call for speculation.
10 Her interest, as I understand it, is a thorough
11 and accurate recitation of the facts, as is mine.
12 MR. PASTERNACK: Are you allowing her to
13 instruct your client?
14 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If I disagree with her
15 instructions, I will inform my client.
16 MR. PASTERNACK: But I want to make that
17 clear, you are allowing her to instruct your client?
18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I'm allowing her to make
19 her objections on the record.
20 MR. PASTERNACK: My question is, are you
21 allowing her to instruct your client?
22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If I join them, he is so
23 instructed. If I do not join them, he is not so
24 instructed. In this case I join her.
25 MS. KENNEDY: In case you are confused at
Page 91
1 all, Mr. Pasternack, it's my understanding that this
2 deposition is being taken in all of the pending cases that
3 either you or Mr. Bennett and Mr. Tinkler have filed. As
4 you are aware, I am counsel of record in any number of
5 those cases; and as counsel of record for the Archidocese
6 of Santa Fe, it is my understanding I would have full
7 opportunity to make whatever objections I would deem
8 appropriate in that role.
9 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: In many of those cases,
10 Mr. Pasternack, the archbishop is here merely as a
11 deponent and not a party.
12 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Archbishop, the question
13 was, do you recall whether was on the
14 investigating committee involving Father ?
15 A. I do not recall whether he was on that
16 committee.
17 I would like to clarify something, for the sake of
18 the question. Whenever I would establish a committee
to
19 do an investigation, it is normally required or at least
20 recommended by the Church that you assign to that
21 committee someone who is familiar with the law of the
22 Church, the canon law of the Church. So they would ask
us
23 to have a canonist on that type of investigation, because
24 the priest has certain canonical rights, also, that have
25 to be respected, and so the steps taken in any
Page 92
1 investigative commission should be guided by a canonist.
2 Since Father is a canonist and was a canonist at
3 that time, I had assigned him certainly to one committee,
4 as you've mentioned, possibly to the second committee. I
5 don't recall. But it would have been under the auspices
6 as a canonist for the archidocese that he would have been
7 placed on that commission. And I knew nothing at that
8 time of what you have alleged about his own personal
life.
9 Q. At the time that the committee was formed with
10 regard to Father , did the archidocese and the
11 chancery have any other canonists who would have been
12 available to serve, if you recall?
13 A. I don't recall the year that that occurred.
14 There were, on one occasion, two canonists; and then
15 shortly after that period, the second one was assigned to
16 a parish in Santa Fe. And Father Viera did serve as the
17 only canonist for a number of months, I don't recall,
18 perhaps six or eight months, before another priest
19 finished his schooling and was able then to come and
join
20 in the archidocese.
21 Q. And who was that?
22 A. Father Wolf is one that when he completed his
23 studies in Catholic University he was able to come to
the
24 archidocese. Prior to him, Father Steve Rosary
completed
25 his studies and came to the archidocese. And then there
Page 93
1 was Father Viera, completed his studies. Prior to Father
2 Viera, there was Father Jerome Martinez. And those are
3 the four that had served at differing times in that
4 position. In that position. They then surfaced the name
Page 94
1-10 (deleted)
11 Q. Did Father ever tell you that he was
12 sexually active and intended to remain so?
13 A. Never.
14 Q. While you were archbishop in an active sense,
15 sir, can you categorize how you viewed your
responsibility
16 to the Catholic faithful of your archidocese?
17 A. When I was named the Archbishop of Santa Fe, I
18 was coming out of an experience of pastoral ministry
19 myself. I had been pastor for several years. So I was
20 familiar with what we call the pastoral ministry, dealing
21 with our laiety, with their organizations, the
involvement
22 of the laiety and the ministry of the Church, and I felt
23 that my greatest contribution would be dealing with the
24 organization of lay groups, getting them involved in
their
25 parishes, being very sensitive to the different cultural
Page 95
1 groups that were present in the archidocese. I made a
2 specific effort to involve the Native American and get
3 their leadership trained for those purposes, as well as
4 with the Hispanic American.
5 I also felt that my own talent and interest was in
6 reference to social needs within the state of New Mexico
7 and how the Church might contribute to the welfare of the
8 common good. And so it was in that pastoral concept that
9 I saw my greatest talents. I did not necessarily see
10 myself as a hot-shot administrator, because I had not
had
11 that type of experience. But I was a very experienced in
12 pastoral needs, and I felt that's where I could give my
13 greatest contribution.
14 Q. In terms of your obligations to the Catholic
15 faithful of the Archidocese of Santa Fe, did you have a
16 concern for protecting them from harm?
17 A. Yes. I think that in service to people, you
18 want to be of service in every way possible. My primary
19 responsibility is the preservation of their faith so that
20 they have the foundation of faith within their lives,
21 personally, as well as within families and communities;
to
22 strengthen that faith with their interaction with one
23 another and concern and care for one another.
24 I did not necessarily see myself as a personal
25 guardian for everyone. That's an impossibility. But I
Page 96
1 would be there to help counsel or offer support when
2 people needed this. For this very reason, we established
3 such centers as our Catholic Social Services and
expanded
4 it. Even this very center here, which deals with children
5 who have been severely retarded either from birth or from
6 some accident in their life -- you may not be aware, but
7 we're close to a beautiful ministry right here that has
8 been operated by our Sisters.
9 This is the type of concern and care that always
10 motivated me to reach out to people. I think that
11 Governor King recognized that when the riot, that
terrible
12 riot occurred in Santa Fe. It was myself that he called
13 to come in on that Sunday to go into the prison to meet
14 with the inmates, because they feared that they would
have
15 to have a major entrance with weapons, and there would
be
16 many, many deaths, and he asked if I would be willing
to
17 try to negotiate and get the prisoners to cooperate for a
18 peaceful settlement, and I did that, and we were able to
19 enter then without any further taking of life.
20 So I think that the view that I had of myself was the
21 concern of people as far as I could do it and to the best
22 of my ability. I was not perfect, but I tried.
23 Q. On the occasions when allegations were brought
24 to your attention of priests having sex with parishioners
25 or with children, did you feel that you had an obligation
Page 97
1 to help those parishioners or children?
2 A. Yes. I certainly felt within my own heart a
3 concern for them. I wasn't aware totally of what damage
4 could be suffered from a person who has been abused. I
5 wasn't aware of that in the '70s. I'm only becoming more
6 and more aware of it today as all our sciences increase.
7 But our concern was there for the people to see that
8 whatever need that they may have expressed would be
met.
9 The first thing, of course, was to remove the priest
10 who would have been alleged to have done something
wrong,
11 to remove him from the situation so that there would not
12 be that fear any longer.
13 Q. I realize that you do not have children, and I
14 accept that proposition. But you do have, I know, many
15 nieces and nephews.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And I'm sure that you were present at their
18 various stages of growth and that you loved them as any
19 uncle loves nieces and nephews.
20 A. Very much.
21 Q. In view of that experience, are you saying that
22 it comes as a surprise to you that children who are
23 sexually molested by adults are damaged?
24 A. The extent of the damage, Mr. Pasternack, is
25 known to very few people. It's more known today than
was
Page 98
1 known in the '70s. I believe anyone present here today
2 would be able to give testimony to that same fact. School
3 teachers may be instructed, and there, very little
4 perhaps. But I think the common person, the ordinary
5 person, would not be aware of the severe damage or
lasting
6 damage that could occur depending on what transpired
with
7 the child.
8 Q. Are you saying then, sir, that in the 1970s, you
9 didn't have an intuitive knowledge that for a child to be
10 sexually molested by an adult was a terribly damaging
11 event?
12 A. No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is
13 that I was unaware of any lasting type of damage that a
14 child might suffer, how long that might be with them. I
15 believe that any child who had been offended was
severely
16 offended, and that child needed to be cared for; and the
17 best care that was necessary, especially as expressed by
18 the parents, should be provided for.
19 Q. Let me ask ask it a different way. Did you
20 then, in fact, know even in the '70s that a child who was
21 sexually molested by an adult would likely be severely
22 emotionally injured by that event?
23 A. The word "severely" is a relative term, and I
24 could not accept that word. I was aware that they were
25 hurt, but how severe that would be was not known to me.
Page 99
1 Q. Are you able to put yourself in this situation:
2 Hypothetically, if some grown man had sexually
molested
3 one of your nieces when they were 10 years old, what
would
4 your reaction to that have been? Are you able to form an
5 opinion about that?
6 A. I would have been very angry, very upset,
7 concerned for her, and making certain that she would be
8 able to adjust after the event had occurred, that she
9 could recapture her -- the natural life that she had been
10 living prior to the event that we're referring to.
11 Q. Even as a Godly man and a Holy man, which we all
12 know you are, wouldn't you have just wanted to kill the
13 guy?
14 A. I don't know. I would have been very angry. I
15 cannot say that I would want to kill that person. That's
16 a very severe feeling that a person has inside
themselves.
17 That would include hate, and I've always tried to avoid
18 hate of any kind. I would have been very angry, very
19 upset. I don't think I would have taken it to that point.
20 Q. And would it be accurate to say that your degree
21 of anger and upsetness would be a manifestation of your
22 intuitive knowledge that for an adult to forcibly have sex
23 with a child would cause injury to that child?
24 A. You lost me a little bit. If you could repeat
25 that.
Page 100
1 Q. Doesn't your intuition tell that you if an adult
2 authority figure forces himself sexually on a child,
3 that's going to injure the child?
4 A. I think if any child is injured by anyone, it's
5 going to be -- the child is injured and could very well be
6 severely injured.
7 Q. The question was, doesn't your in tuition tell
8 you -- and didn't it always tell you -- that for an adult
9 to force themselves sexually on a child is going to injure
10 that child?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you feel, as archbishop, any particular and
13 distinct obligation to the Catholic children of New
14 Mexico?
15 A. I felt an obligation to everyone, Mr.
16 Pasternack. Children are a very essential part of our
17 community, and I've always reached out to children,
have
18 been concerned about children. But I don't think my
19 concern was limited only to Catholic children in New
20 Mexico. I think it was to all children and to all people.
21 I wouldn't limit it to that one category.
22 Q. I suspect you are one of our leading experts on
23 the way in which the Hispanic community feels toward
their
24 church in New Mexico. And it has been my thesis -- and
I
25 want you to correct me if I'm wrong -- that there is a
Page 101
1 level of devotion that the Hispanic people in New
Mexico
2 bring to their Catholic faith that is almost unsurpassed
3 anywhere. Would you agree or disagree with that?
4 A. It's a very deep faith. It's a faith that is
5 rooted in their own family traditions that -- and it's
6 part of the culture that they live daily. And so that's
7 why it does have very deep roots, yes. It's a strong
8 faith.
9 Q. My suspicion is that there are many people
10 living in New Mexico who can trace their lineage back
to
11 the Conquistadors.
12 A. Absolutely.
13 Q. And that, therefore, they believe in Catholicism
14 to the point of believing in proselytizing Catholicism,
15 because their very tradition is founded on bringing the
16 word of God, as the Catholic Church knows it, to the
17 people of this part of the world?
18 A. Today, most of our Catholic people in our
19 Hispanic families are not really people who try to bring
20 that faith to others. They share it by example, by how
21 they live their lives, and I think they live their lives
22 very beautifully and in a very humble way, especially in
23 our northern villages, which we've all had the joy of
24 visiting and sharing with the people. And there's
25 something mystical about their own faith and about the
way
Page 102
1 they live. It's not something that they're trying to
2 impose or make it, you know, a distinct effort to share
3 that way, except through their own example, the way
they
4 live.
5 Q. But my thesis -- and you correct me if I'm
6 wrong, because I yield to you as the expert -- is because
7 these people can trace their lineage to the Conquistadors,
8 who are more proselytizing type of folks, that the
9 Catholic Church is a very strong foundational,
fundamental
10 part of their lives that they believe in with all their
11 hearts.
12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, is the
13 question that the Hispanic people in New Mexico
believe in
14 the Catholic faith with all their hearts, or is that it
15 they believe in the Catholic faith with all their hearts
16 because they trace their lineage to the Conquistadors?
17 Q. Are you able to respond to the question?
18 A. I would say this in response to the question --
19 and I'm not an expert, because you're making a
20 generalization perhaps unaware that the majority of
people
21 in New Mexico are not of direct Hispanic lineage. They
22 are more of Mexican lineage than they are Hispanic
23 lineage. We have many families here who can direct
their
24 lineage back to the early Spanish colonial times. But we
25 cannot really throw into that category the rest of the
Page 103
1 Hispanic family in New Mexico, because the majority
would
2 not belong to that. It's a smaller number.
3 But I would say this: That the faith of people is
4 not always dependent upon their lineage and who they
have
5 descended from. Their faith is dependent upon their
6 immediate ancestor, their parents, their grandparents, the
7 extended family, uncles and aunts, how they live out that
8 faith together, how they celebrate those important
moments
9 in their life, moments of baptism or weddings, even
10 celebration of death, because death is an important
moment
11 in their lives of their families, and it's a beautiful
12 thing to see celebrated with hope in their heart, with a
13 great devotion and love for God in their heart. It's a
14 not a hopeless event. It's filled with hope.
15 So I would say that it's really more dependent upon
16 their immediate ancestors, their parents and
grandparents,
17 than upon those that went too far back. There's a pride
18 there, but it's not really faith.
19 Q. In any event, New Mexico, for example -- and for
20 reasons that I don't know, but maybe you do -- has
spawned
21 such groups as the Penitentes who are so devout, is my
22 understanding, in their belief that God suffered for their
23 sins that they actually flagellate themselves to try to
24 emulate that suffering?
25 A. The Penitentes are people of great faith and of
Page 104
1 great devotion. Their origin really is in relationship to
2 the Franciscan community. They were originally a lay
3 group of Franciscans, not an ordained group but lay
group,
4 and they became important to the Catholic Church in
New
5 Mexico at a time when there were no priests, or very few
6 priests in the state. And they became the spiritual
7 leaders of their little villages. They became the prayer
8 leaders. They would baptize the children. They would
9 bury those who needed to be buried. They would even
10 witness marriages, because no one else was there to be
11 witnessed, and they kept the faith alive. And even to
12 today, the men who belonged to this are wonderful men,
13 very humble men, who believe that their faith is one of
14 tradition and of penance. They see and recognize the
need
15 for penance in their life, not necessarily
16 self-flagellation, but self-denial, something that our
17 general American society doesn't know too much about,
18 because we like instant satisfaction and instant
19 gratification. But they believe in self-denial.
20 Q. My understanding of the process of becoming a
21 priest is that there is a process whereby the priest's
22 hands are blessed and through that blessing those hands
23 actually transform, then, the communion into the body
and
24 the blood of Christ; is that an accurate understanding?
25 A. The hands are not really the instrument of
Page 105
1 transformation of the host and the wine at the Mass. It
2 is the intention and the spoken word of the priest calling
3 upon the power of God to transform the bread and the
wine
4 into the body and blood of Christ.
5 The hands are consecrated inasmuch as the hands are
6 going to be used throughout the life of the priest for
7 blessings, for annointings, for baptisms, for impositions
8 of hands for blessings. They're used continually for
9 administration of the Holy Eucharist at Mass, absolution
10 and confession. So they become a very living symbol of
11 the power of the Lord God in that ordained person.
12 Q. Some of the people that we represent,
13 particularly those from northern New Mexico, have
referred
14 to the priest in the tradition of their family as being an
15 angel of God. Have you heard that?
16 A. No, not as an angel of God. As a certainly a
17 representative of the Lord. An instrument of the Lord,
18 they use that word a lot, that expression.
19 I think when they recognize an individual who is
20 outstanding in his life, his holiness and his self-denial,
21 they may call him "un angelito," a little angel of God,
or
22 even better than that, "un santo," a saint of God,
because
23 he reflects that in his life, his holiness of living, but
24 it's not an expression that is given to every priest.
25 They're pretty discerning. They have respect, but they
Page 106
1 would withhold that for those very special individuals.
2 Q. Are you able to say whether or not in general
3 the priest is a very respected person in his community?
4 A. I would say yes. The priests like, I would say,
5 most ministers in our country, hold a place of respect in
6 the communities. Especially in the small community,
they
7 would have that respect.
8 Q. Is the relationship between priest and penitent,
9 as you viewed it when you were an active priest and then
10 an archbishop, one of trust?
11 A. You used the word "penitent," and that has a
12 very.
13 Q. Excuse me, parishioner.
14 A. Parishioner, all right. That's more general.
15 Yes, the relationship between what I would call an
active
16 parishioner, one who is actively attending Church and
17 close to their Church and their faith, they would have a
18 place of trust in the priest. He is their leader.
19 Q. And did you, as archbishop, or does the Church,
20 as a larger entity, encourage parishioners to have that
21 level of trust and respect for the priest?
22 A. We encourage them to work together with their
23 priest, not to idolize them, but to cooperate with him in
24 the leadership position. Many parishes -- most of our
25 parishes today have parish councils, and they are in a
Page 107
1 sense the representatives of the parish community who
work
2 together with the priest for the various pastoral needs in
3 their community. So they represent -- and the people are
4 happy to have their parish representatives on those
5 councils to work together with the priest. Cooperation is
6 something I've always encouraged between priest and his
7 people.
8 Q. In the event of a disagreement between the
9 parish counsel and the priest, who wins?
10 A. Well, depends on what kind of disagreement. In
11 some instances, the parish council actually has to agree,
12 or no action can be taken. In other instances, they are
13 advisory in nature rather than -- they don't have the
14 authority to legislate.
15 Q. Would it be correct to conclude that the
16 difference between those two is one of ministerial versus
17 the liturgy? The parish council might have to agree on
18 whether we buy a new roof, but they're not going to have
19 to agree on how we say the Mass?
20 A. You're a good liturgist, Mr. Pasternack.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. Right. No, the priest is the official person
23 designated by the bishop to represent him to the parish.
24 He is the one who has been trained and ordained for
things
25 sacred; therefore, the liturgy is really in his hands.
Page 108
1 However, in order to make the liturgy relevant to the
2 people, he would normally involve the people in planning
3 the liturgical celebrations so that the choir groups that
4 are singing would have music that would be in keeping
with
5 the theme of that particular celebration. Ushers and
6 others who are necessary for the celebration are properly
7 trained, also.
8 Q. I don't know if you can describe this or if I'm
9 even asking the question too naively. So forgive me. But
10 in the way that the Catholic parishioners of New Mexico
11 view the road from here to God, is the priest a necessary
12 intermediary in the relationship with God?
13 A. Not essential, no. The people offer their
14 prayer directly to the Lord. The priest becomes an
15 instrument for the administration of the sacraments, and
16 the sacraments become channels of God's grace for
people,
17 but not the only channels, as are their own prayer, the
18 reading of the sacred scriptures, their own good works to
19 one another are all certainly channels, because there are
20 many areas where a priest is not present for the people.
21 But the priest becomes certainly a very important part of
22 the official Church in rendering the celebration of the
23 sacraments for the people.
24 Q. Then other than situations like Eucharistic
25 ministers who are specially appointed for that purpose,
Page 109
1 would it be correct to say that the Holy Sacraments of the
2 Church -- marriage, baptism, confession, communion --
that
3 these are things which the priest serves as the channel to
4 God for?
5 A. Yes. He is the instrument of the Lord in the
6 celebration of the sacrament to unite this person in the
7 sacrament of marriage with their Lord, in the sacrament
of
8 baptism with their Lord, whatever that sacrament may be.
9 Q. It's been described to me certainly by some
10 people in northern New Mexico, and I'd like you to tell
me
11 if this is your observation or off base, but it's been
12 described to me that these communities view the
community
13 at one level, the priest at another level, and God at the
14 ultimate level. Is that not right, or is that essentially
15 the way you have understood it, as well?
16 A. I don't know if they would think of it in terms
17 of levels. It's possible. Some individuals may very well
18 say that, "Our Father must be" -- "Our priest must be
19 closer to God, because he has the power to celebrate the
20 Mass daily and to administer the sacraments."
21 But I think especially in northern New Mexico, you
22 have to prove yourself to the people before they give
you
23 that real total trust and love. People of southern New
24 Mexico, a little more lenient to offer trust, but the
25 north, they're more demanding.
Page 110
1 Q. And in that process of giving the host and
2 adminstering communion, it's my understanding that
there's
3 something called transubstantiation?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that is actually the process whereby the
6 host becomes the body of Christ?
7 A. Yes, you are right.
8 Q. And the wine becomes of blood of Christ?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And without the priest's intersession, that
11 transubstantiation does not occur; isn't that right?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. It would seem, then, that the priest almost has
14 mystical powers to transform the inanimate into the
15 animate?
16 A. He has the power, we believe, as Roman
17 Catholics, a power given to us by Christ, designated at
18 the Last Supper and which is transferred in the
sacrament
19 of ordination, exactly.
20 Q. At some point in the trials in these cases,
21 we're going to be talking about issues like confession,
22 forgiveness, redemption. Could you explain, based on
your
23 extensive background both as priest and archbishop,
what
24 those things mean within the Catholic Church?
25 A. Confession, forgiveness and redemption.
Page 111
1 Confession is a sacrament of the Church. It's one of our
2 seven sacraments. It's also known today as a sacrament of
3 reconciliation whereby one who recognizes his sin wants
to
4 be reconciled both with his God, whom he believes he
has
5 offended because he's broken God's law, as well as being
6 reconciled with the body, the rest of the Church, against
7 whom he feels he's also offended because he has failed in
8 God's commandment.
9 This sacrament is normally done privately, so that
10 the person may freely confess his sin. The priest listens
11 to that person's confession. If the person is sincere and
12 will make an effort to try to live an upright life in the
13 future, then the priest asks him to perform a penance,
14 normally a simple penance of prayer, as a symbol or a
sign
15 of that desire to live in God's grace. And then the
16 priest invokes God's forgiveness upon him and offers the
17 at the same time the forgiveness of the Church so that
18 reconciliation occurs. And the person feels that that
19 guilt that they have carried into the confessional has, in
20 fact, been lifted, has been forgiven by God, and they
can
21 go forth and sin no more, as the Lord would say to them.
22 Q. Would it be accurate to say, then, that the
23 priest actually is the conduit through which God extends
24 his forgiveness to the people?
25 A. Yes. The sacrament of confession, the
Page 112
1 absolution itself, through confession, is dependent upon
2 the priest's forgiveness, but it's not the only way that
3 forgiveness can be received. The Church also teaches
that
4 another way of forgiveness of sins is that the penitent
5 themselves make a perfect act of love of God, an act of
6 forgiveness, not having an opportunity to make their
7 confession to a priest, because priests are not always
8 available, and that perfect act of love does, in fact,
9 reconcile them once again to their God. So it depends
10 upon the internal sincerity and motivation of the
11 penitent.
12 Q. Could you give me an example of a perfect act of
13 forgiveness? What does that mean?
14 A. A perfect act of love is if a person simply says
15 to his God, in his own words, that he recognizes his own
16 sin, his failures as a Christian trying to live out God's
17 law, and he is sincerely sorry for having failed as a
18 Christian, and he asks the Lord's forgiveness for his sin.
19 He promises to live a good life. He certainly has no
20 intention of falling back into sin, and he will try to
21 avoid any occasions that might lead to it, and he asks
22 God's forgiveness. And he shows this love of God
inasmuch
23 as he then becomes more of a God-fearing person in his
24 presence at Church, in his participation in whatever
form
25 of prayer or in his own prayer life at home.
Page 113
1 Q. Why would anybody go to confession if you can
2 take care of this in your living room?
3 A. Because in confession, you hear the words that
4 you are absolved. In your living room, you don't hear the
5 words. You have to have a deep faith. People like to
6 hear the words. And I think that it's very important that
7 people -- it's not only important for them to hear the
8 words, but it's important for them to make that admission
9 of guilt to another person. There's something therapeutic
10 about it. When you admit your own guilt to another
11 person, that is a step forward in healing for yourself,
12 and I believe that that has always been an essential
13 component of the Church's absolution.
14 There has been allowed in the Church what we know as
15 general absolution, where the priest can invoke God's
16 forgiveness upon a large group at one time, rather than
an
17 individual. But that would be allowed only under certain
18 circumstances, such as emergencies, in wartime.
They're
19 expecting to be in battle momentarily. I'm sure it
20 happened in the Gulf War recently, where the priest
would
21 gather the troops together for an absolution.
22 Q. Would it be correct to conclude that priests
23 themselves also go to confession on occasion?
24 A. Priests themselves are encouraged to go to
25 confession regularly for the grace of the sacrament,
Page 114
1 because we believe that God's grace does strengthen you,
2 and also, as a part of your spiritual structure, to keep
3 yourself close to the Lord. It serves as a
4 self-examination on a regular basis.
5 Q. And I'm not asking about any particular priest
6 or confessional situation, but would it be the norm that
7 when a priest goes to confession, one of the motivations
8 for so doing would be to confess that priests own sins?
9 A. When the priest goes to confession, yes, he's
10 confessing his own sin, or if he feels he's not guilty of
11 any serious sin, it becomes a confession in which he
asks
12 forgiveness for any past sins that he has forgiven so that
13 he might gain the grace of the sacrament. In other
words,
14 it becomes what we call a confession of devotion.
15 Q. When a priest generally goes to confession
16 speaking to the confessor of a specific sin, does it also
17 work the same way, that the confessor will pronounce an
18 act of penance, the priest will do it and then be
absolved
19 of the sin?
20 A. The confession is held the same way for a priest
21 as for any lay person. It's a marvelous sacrament, one
22 that has brought a great, tremendous healing and peace
to
23 many, many people. I just can't tell you how that
24 beautiful sacrament works for many people in their lives.
25 Many people who return to the sacrament after having
been
Page 115
1 away from the sacrament of penance for, say, 20 or 30
2 years in their life, and they have felt a great urge to
3 return their life to God and to live righteously once
4 again, and they come, and they begin with that
confession
5 before the priest and before God.
6 Q. Now, once the person or priest who has sinned
7 and confessed and receives the penance, once they
perform
8 the penance, in the eyes of the Church are they now
9 absolved of the sin?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Are there any sins for which absolution is not
12 available?
13 A. There are what they call reserved sins. One
14 reserved sin has been the sin of abortion, because it is
15 significantly a serious sin. However, because of the
16 prevalence of abortion in our society in America today,
17 priests in I would say probably every diocese of our
18 country have been granted that permission to absolve
from
19 that sin, but they do it with counseling for the penitent.
20 Another grave reserved sin would be that of striking
21 the priest or attempting to kill or harm the man
22 physically. They would want to know what took place,
so
23 that it doesn't just -- it's not just a confession, but
24 what has precipitated this.
25 Another reserved sin, very serious, would be if the
Page 116
1 priest breaks the sacrament of the seal of confession,
2 that he has made public somebody's confession. Then he
is
3 not granted absolution from that action, if, in fact, that
4 had happened, until permission from the Holy Father is
5 granted. So that's considered very serious.
6 Q. If a priest has forced sex with a child, is that
7 a sin for which absolution is available?
8 A. That is a sin for which absolution is available
9 provided the priest is properly disposed and recognizes
10 his own sin.
11 Q. And who makes the determination as to whether
12 the priest is properly disposed and recognizes his own
13 sin?
14 A. It has to be the priest confessor, whoever he
15 has gone to confession with.
16 Q. Would it be correct to say, then, that striking
17 a priest or having an abortion are greater sins than for a
18 priest to have sex with a child?
19 A. It's not judging which one is greater, but a
20 potential harm that continues after that. Abortion is the
21 destruction -- we believe it's the destruction of a human
22 being, of an innocent human being who has no defense.
And
23 that that act, unless properly counseled, can become
24 repetitive.
25 The sacrament of confession is a very sacred
Page 117
1 sacrament and demands absolute trust; and therefore,
2 anyone who violates the secrecy of that confession does
3 great harm to the sacrament itself, because it injures the
4 trust that people may have in the sacrament.
5 So these are actions that have been taken by the
6 Church in establishing the reserved sins for reasons that
7 have occurred over the years, perhaps for centuries, that
8 have lead to the determination of reserved sins.
9 It's not to -- it is not to judge one action as more
10 offensive or less offensive than another. All sin is
11 ugly. All sin is dirty.
12 Q. Forgive me, but let's talk about in your own
13 mind. Isn't it -- or is it a worse sin to have an
14 abortion than for a priest to put his penis into the mouth
15 of a child and hold that child and forcibly ejaculate into
16 the mouth of that child?
17 A. You've created an awful, awful scene. I would
18 say both sins are grievous sins, extremely offensive,
both
19 to the human being and to God. One takes the life of a
20 child; the other takes the innocence of the child. Both
21 are offensive or an offending against the child.
22 Q. But the abortion, if I understand you correctly,
23 is less forgivable than the forcible rape?
24 A. It is forgivable. It was -- it's listed as a
25 reserved sin unless the bishop grants permission to his
Page 118
1 priest to grant absolution for the sin of abortion.
2 Q. Well, I'll just ask the final question this way:
3 Is it listed as a reserved sin for a priest to put his
4 penis into the mouth of a child and ejaculate?
5 A. No, it is not.
6 Q. No?
7 A. It is not.
8 Q. Do you have an opinion on whether it ought to
9 be?
10 A. I don't believe that any list is ever firm, and
11 I can't speculate what should or should not be. Sin
12 itself -- I think we have to come back to a realization
13 that sin is ugly, and it's destructive of people. And
14 there's been a loss of consciousness of sin in our modern
15 societies, all kinds of sin.
16 Q. Is masturbation a reserved sin?
17 A. No, it is not.
18 Q. Is the use of birth control a reserved sin?
19 A. No, it is not.
20 Q. Is redemption and absolution personal to the
21 individual? And by that, I mean between God and the
22 individual.
23 A. I think you may be thinking in terms of
24 salvation of the individual. Redemption is an act that we
25 believe was accomplished by our Lord Jesus through his
own
Page 119
1 death on the cross in which he redeemed the human race
2 from slavery to sin and gave the human race an
opportunity
3 to live apart from sin if they claimed the grace of God.
4 And so the act of redemption is something that the Lord
5 Jesus performs for us. It's not something that we perform
6 for ourselves. That is God's gift to us. We need to
7 claim it. We need to say yes, "I want God's grace of
8 redemption and forgiveness, and I want God's grace of
9 redemption for myself that I may be saved in my own
life."
10 So it becomes an act of faith on the part of that
11 individual.
12 Q. If a person confesses and receives and performs
13 the penance, who is it who knows whether they've been
14 absolved, the confessor?
15 A. If the person confesses and --
16 Q. Receives their penance and performs it, who is
17 the person, then, who knows that they've been absolved
of
18 sin? Just the confessor and the person confessing?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And God?
21 A. And the Lord, yes, exactly.
22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Why don't we take a
23 break, Mr. Pasternack. We've been at it three hours,
now.
24 MR. GOFFE: The time is 3:55. We will go
25 off the record.
Page 120
1 [A recess was taken.]
2 MR. GOFFE: The time is 4:16. We are back
3 on the record.
4 Q. Archbishop, when we broke, we were talking about
5 the -- you were talking about the reserved sins, which, if
6 I could summarize, seems to me to be the sins that are
7 less pardonable and require greater barriers to be
8 surmounted in order to be forgiven; is that a fair
9 summary?
10 A. Special permission. They have to be looked
11 into.
12 Q. And it seems that one of the most serious of the
13 reserved sins, because it's the one that only the Pope
can
14 absolve one of, is revealing confidences that are
15 expressed in the confessional; is that fair?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But that, for example, that child sexual abuse
18 is not a reserved sin? Is that a fair summary?
19 A. It is not a reserved sin.
20 Q. Tell me, then, sir, if this scenario is one that
21 would be capable of happening with that analysis of the
22 beliefs of the Church: A priest forcibly rapes a child,
23 confesses that sin to another priest, who pronounces the
24 penance and grants absolution upon making a
determination
25 that the perpetrator is truly repentant. The confessor,
Page 121
1 however, can't tell you, as archbishop, what he learned;
2 is that right?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. And if he does tell you, as archbiship, what he
5 learned about the priest, then he has committed a
reserved
6 sin that only the Pope can forgive; is that right?
7 A. True. But that confessor can and perhaps should
8 mention to the penitent that he has done something that
is
9 very serious, inquire if this has happened before and
10 advise him that since this has been a crime against a
11 child, that he see his bishop or an authority so that this
12 would move forward. And he can make it dependent that
his
13 absolution will not be granted unless this take place.
14 And in fact, he could offer himself to accompany the
man
15 to see his bishop.
16 Q. But you would not know about whether the
17 confessor conditioned the absolution on approaching the
18 bishop, because the confessor couldn't tell you unless
the
19 guy did approach the bishop; is that right?
20 A. Anything that transpires within the confessional
21 has to be maintained that way.
22 Q. Therefore, whether or not the rape of a child by
23 a priest gets reported to you, as archbishop, could
depend
24 upon the personal opinions of the confessor?
25 A. And in the same way whether or not a confession
Page 122
1 of a homicide would get reported depends upon that
2 confessor. But knowing our confessors, they would require
3 that person to make it known to authorities because, in
4 fact, a crime has been committed.
5 I think we've been so focused here on what I call the
6 spiritual relationship between a penitent and his God that
7 we have not talked about the civil consequences of an
8 action which should have civil consequences, and these
9 examples that we have used certainly do have civil
10 consequences; and therefore, action should be taken in
11 that direction, as well.
12 Q. Well, sir, how do you know that your confessors
13 here, while you were archbishop, conditioned absolution
of
14 a priest who raped a child upon going to you?
15 A. I have no knowledge of that, and I have no
16 knowledge whether or not any priest has gone to
17 confession, for the first thing. I cannot force
18 confession on anyone, and I certainly cannot force
19 knowledge of a confession from a confessor. No, that is
20 up to the individual.
21 Q. All right. So whether or not the confessors in
22 the Santa Fe Archidocese actually did hear confessions
23 from priests who raped children and absolved those
priests
24 is something that to this day you don't even know; isn't
25 that right?
Page 123
1 A. I would have no knowledge of that. That is the
2 spiritual reality, because we're dealing about a spiritual
3 reality between that person and his God. That doesn't
4 exclude the possibility that parents would make this
known
5 to anyone else, or friends or whomever. But we're dealing
6 here with a spiritual reality in which the individual
7 apparently, as you have drawn the scenario, the
individual
8 is seeking forgiveness from God, and we haven't dealt
with
9 these other consequences.
10 Q. Let's talk about the other consequences. The
11 confessor would be violating the seal of the confessional
12 if the confessor called up the DA and said, "I've got a
13 priest over here who is raping kids"?
14 A. We have mentioned that, right, but the confessor
15 can also tell the individual that, "You have done
16 something of such a nature that is a crime. You have an
17 obligation to report this to a proper authority."
18 Q. He can. But did you ever direct your priests in
19 this archidocese at any point, "If you learn, if you
20 receive confession from a priest who has raped a child,
21 you are not to grant absolution unless that priest
22 presents himself to the DA"?
23 A. I did not grant -- I did not direct that to the
24 priests because I cannot direct that. A priest confessor
25 has to be his own judge within that tribunal. That's why
Page 124
1 it's called an internal forum. He has to be able to make
2 those judgments there.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. Awareness of what's taking place, that's another
5 thing. But I could not give that directive.
6 Q. So the confessor, absent the agreement of the
7 penitent, can't tell you that the penitent admitted raping
8 a child, can't tell the DA that the penitent admitted
9 raping a child, I presume can't even tell the parents of
10 the child that their child has been raped by the penitent;
11 is that true?
12 A. That's true.
13 Q. Are you comfortable with that as a structure of
14 the Church?
15 A. As we speak about a spiritual reality, I have to
16 be -- I have to accept that. That's a spiritual reality.
17 The sacrament of confession is not meant to be a place
of
18 simple counseling where an individual would come to
share
19 their concern about an event that's happened. If they
20 come to confession, it is presumed that they are coming
21 because of remorse within their conscience and their
22 desire, then, to make themselves right with God. And
that
23 remorse should be of such a degree that they would want
to
24 make things right, also, with the community, with those
25 civil obligations.
Page 125
1 Q. Are you, sir, aware of one case where a priest
2 who raped a child ever presented himself to you as a
3 condition of obtaining absolution?
4 A. First of all, I cannot respond regarding
5 absolution, because that is something I hold high. I
6 cannot recall anything of this nature.
7 Q. Just to make sure the question is clear, do you
8 recall any situation where the confessor -- where you
9 learned that the confessor said to the priest who had
10 raped a child, "I will not extend absolution to you unless
11 you go talk to the archbishop"?
12 A. No, I have not learned that nor will I learn
13 that.
14 Q. Are you aware of any circumstance where the
15 confessor said to the priest who had raped a child, "I
16 will not extend absolution to you unless you present
17 yourself to the District Attorney"?
18 A. Again, I repeat, everything within the
19 confessional has to be kept within themselves. If, in
20 fact, a person presents himself to an official, he does
21 that on his own. No one will know that that came from a
22 confessor or not. Again, I'm repeating that the sacrament
23 of confession has to be kept in the internal forum. And
24 that's just the way it is, because it's dealing with the
25 spiritual reality.
Page 126
1 Again, I think we're combining the civil reality, the
2 civil consequences of an action, with the spiritual
3 consequences of an action. And we've been talking about
4 confession which deals really with the spiritual
5 consequences of the man's desire for forgiveness. If, in
6 fact, that person has not made a report, then it's the
7 obligation of that priest to so advise him that, in fact,
8 if he is truly repentant, he has to do something about it.
9 Q. And are you aware, sir, of any situation where
10 the confessor conditioned absolution on the priest who
11 raped a child going to the parents of that child and
12 apologizing to them?
13 A. No. I repeat what I said before. The sacrament
14 of confession must be kept intact.
15 Q. But you would see the objective manifestations
16 outside the confessional of such behavior, if it had
17 occurred, i.e., the priest would come to you and tell you
18 what he had done, or the priest would go to the DA, and
19 you would become quickly aware that your priest was
under
20 criminal investigation, or the parents would be advised
by
21 the priest who would have the opportunity to
communicate
22 with you and say, "Did you know what he did?"
23 And did you see any such objective manifestations of
24 that type of behavior during the time that you were
25 archbishop?
Page 127
1 A. I don't have District Attorneys calling me
2 saying that, "Father X came here from a confessional and
3 reported this to me." That's not the thing that would
4 normally occur. So I would have to answer negative to
5 your question.
6 Q. Do you know, Archbishop Sanchez, if any priest
7 of the Archidocese of Santa Fe was absolved in the
8 confession for sexually abusing children?
9 A. I have no knowledge of absolution of any person
10 in the confessional, priest or laiety. That is why the
11 confessional is a closed quarter, and it's confidential to
12 the person making the confession and to the confessor.
13 Q. In the beliefs of the Church and in your own
14 beliefs, why doesn't the child have a right to know that
15 what the priest did was a sin, but the priest has the
16 right to be absolved for having done it?
17 A. I think that's an assumption on your part. The
18 child has every right to know that that is wrong. The
19 priest has a right to confess, as anyone else has a right
20 to confess. I don't think that you can make a distinction
21 that one does not have a right and the other has a right.
22 Q. How is the right of the child to know that what
23 was done to him was wrong, how is that being
facilitated
24 by the secrecy that's attendant to the confessional?
25 A. I don't see how you can relate what -- the child
Page 128
1 to the confessional.
2 Q. How is the right of the child to know that he or
3 she has been wronged facilitated in any fashion in the
4 doctrine of the Church?
5 A. The Church has moral teachings to parents, to
6 those who are of age to be able to understand them. The
7 moral teaching has always been consistent regarding
8 morality, as well as doctrine of the Church. The people
9 of any parish, parents and youngsters, as well, would
10 understand that which is contrary to Church doctrine or
11 contrary to the law of God. And that's how they would
12 express it.
13 Q. Archbishop, are you saying that someone who has
14 been taught to believe that the hands of the priest are
15 instrumental in extending the Holy Sacraments of God
to
16 that child that they would understand and know instantly
17 that when the priest said, "Okay. Now, I'm going to put
18 my penis in your mouth," they would understand that
was
19 wrong, if he said it was God's will?
20 A. I would say -- I don't know what an individual
21 would understand, because I think we're making a
22 generalization without any particular individual in mind.
23 But I would say that children, although I've never been a
24 parent, children have been taught by their own parents
as
25 to that which can be done and cannot be done in regards
to
Page 129
1 their own body. Any violation of their body would be
2 considered wrong.
3 Q. Based on your knowledge of the Hispanic Catholic
4 community of northern New Mexico of 20 years ago, if
5 little Johnny had come home and said, "Mommy, the
priest
6 put his penis in my mouth and made me suck on it," isn't
7 the most likely scenario that mommy would have slapped
the
8 kid and said, "Don't lie about the priest"?
9 A. No, I could not accept that. I think that's
10 such a serious allegation. I think the mother would have
11 been shocked to hear this and would have been ready to
12 confront the priest or to question the child and say,
13 "Where did you get that idea?" And, "Tell me about it."
14 But I don't think that they would have simply punished
the
15 child and said, "Forget about it."
16 Q. Let me ask this, Archbishop: Isn't it a fact
17 that you have seen, over the last two years, people
coming
18 forward to whom this rape had happened in the '60s, in
the
19 '70s, who in fact did not report it to their parents then?
20 A. This is their statement, that they had not
21 reported it to their parents. I cannot answer for them.
22 But I can say that in families, in our northern New
Mexico
23 families that you've been using as examples, those
24 families are so closely knit and so close to one another
25 that there is not only parents, but there's grandparents
Page 130
1 and uncles and aunts or brothers or sisters to whom they
2 could very well relate this incident. I don't -- unless
3 it's their own feeling of shame that would prohibit them
4 from that. But it's not as though they are denied that
5 because their parents might get mad at them or
something
6 of that nature.
7 Q. Can you appreciate that a child who was raped by
8 a priest might feel shamed by that, might wonder why
God
9 had done that to them?
10 A. Yes, absolutely, yes. Yes, a child would
11 certainly feel shamed.
12 Q. And then not report that because of those
13 feelings of shame?
14 A. I don't know what their action or inaction would
15 be, but the shame certainly would be there.
16 Q. Are you saying, Archbishop, then, that it is not
17 the responsibility of the confessor to report the priest
18 rapist, but it is the responsibility of the child who was
19 raped to report the priest rapist?
20 A. I'm saying that the priest confessor cannot, in
21 his conscience, report anything that he hears in
22 confession because that is the teaching of the Church
and
23 the promise that he has taken when he is granted the
24 faculties to hear confessions, that he keeps absolutely
25 secret all and everything that comes to him in the
Page 131
1 confession.
2 Q. Then do you see that if the child is too shamed
3 or too afraid, then you have no mechanism in the Church
to
4 report the misconduct at all?
5 A. The child is not denied an opportunity to report
6 it to the child's family or to anyone else.
7 Q. But if the child is too ashamed or too afraid to
8 do it, isn't it true that there's no mechanism in the
9 Church for revealing priests who rape children?
10 A. What mechanism would you suggest? You seem to
11 have something in mind, and I'm wondering what you're
12 thinking about at this point.
13 Q. Let me ask you this, Archbishop: Are you
14 comfortable with the situation of confessors knowing
that
15 their brother priests have raped children and not being
16 able to report it themselves to civil authorities?
17 A. I'm not comfortable with any type of sin or
18 abuse of other individuals, and I am not comfortable in
19 knowing that priests have to hear the confessions of
20 people and not been able to report anything. But I know
21 that the people coming to that confessional are coming
22 precisely because they know that Father is going to
keep
23 to his heart all that they confess. Because their
24 confession pertains to themself and their God.
25 The consequences of any action that people have
Page 132
1 committed has to be done outside of that confessional.
2 Q. Are you familiar with the gospel of Mark 9:42?
3 A. I would appreciate it if you'd quote it.
4 Q. Whosoever shall offend one of these little ones
5 that believe in me, it were better that a millstone be
6 tied to his neck, and he be cast into the seA." Are you
7 familiar with that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And do you believe that?
10 A. I believe that, and I believe that the Lord
11 Jesus was emphasizing the importance to protect
children,
12 not to scandalize them, to allow them to maintain their
13 integrity and their life.
14 Q. And what you have described -- forgive me --
15 this afternoon is an example of a shroud of secrecy that
16 has been imposed on child abuse by the Church, isn't it?
17 A. No, it's not a shroud of child abuse.
18 Q. Shroud of secrecy.
19 A. Or a shroud of secrecy. It is an opportunity
20 for people to make a confession without fear that that --
21 whatever they say in that confession is going to be
22 revealed. That has been going on in the Roman Catholic
23 Church for nearly 2,000 years and regardless of the kinds
24 of sins that have been confessed. -- many have been
25 confessed which involved murders and all kinds of awful
Page 133
1 offenses against people. But at the same time, the
2 integrity of confession must be maintained.
3 Q. In your heart of hearts, Archbishop, do you
4 believe that a priest who is so compelled to violate the
5 social contract that he would force his penis into the
6 mouth of a child and ejaculate into the mouth of that
7 child would nonetheless present himself voluntarily to
8 civil authorities to atone for that behavior? Can you
9 really believe that?
10 A. Probably not. I would not believe that. But at
11 the same time, a person who has done that, I cannot
12 visualize going to a priest for confession in order to set
13 himself right with his God. He realizes that he has done
14 something awful. I'm not certain whether that person has
15 the sincerity of his own heart to ask God's forgiveness
16 that he wants his life to be changed and that he's going
17 to do what is necessary to restore what he has offended.
18-21 (deleted)
22 A. No. You will not know, because that's between
23 myself and any confessor.
24 Q. And similarly, the rape of a child by a priest
25 therefore is between the priest and the confessor, with
Page 134
1 the child being out in the cold, unless that child has the
2 strength of will to report instantly; isn't that right?
3 A. You are making it sound, Mr. Pasternack, that
4 the only option for a child to report himself or a person
5 to report himself is the confessional. And you've
6 insisted upon the confession as being the only avenue.
7 And I don't agree with that.
8 Q. Well, do you think the priest is going to trot
9 down to the DA's office and say, "Sorry, I raped a kid"?
10 A. Maybe not down to the DA's office, but perhaps
11 to another person who could advise the priest that this
12 has to be done.
13 Q. And are you aware of that ever having happened
14 in the non-confessional setting of the "other person"?
15 A. Not to my knowledge.
16 Q. No. People who rape children tend not to
17 advertise that, don't they, Archbishop?
18 A. I would say they do not, yes.
19 Q. And under the structure of the Church, there is
20 no way for it to become reasonably known, is there?
21 A. Not through the sacrament of confession.
22 Q. And you haven't seen it become known in any
23 other way, have you?
24 MR. KONRAD: Objection to the extent that
25 the question implies that he has seen it happen in the
Page 135
1 sacrament of confession, and I'd like to object to the
2 whole line of questioning in that this is not just a Roman
3 Catholic Church doctrine. There is also a New Mexico
rule
4 of evidence promulgated by the New Mexico Supreme
Court
5 which prohibits a priest from revealing anything he learns
6 in a confession. So it's state law, as well as Roman
7 Catholic doctrine.
8 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I might add that is not
9 much different than the attorney/client privilege.
10 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) You can go ahead and
11 answer, Archbishop. You have not seen it occur in any
12 non-confessional context, have you?
13 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: It's asked and answered.
14 A. I don't believe I have.
15 Q. Okay. Now, you do believe, do you not, that the
16 rape of a child by a priest should have civil
17 consequences?
18 A. That's the law of the state.
19 Q. And were you to learn about the rape of a child
20 in a setting that did not involve the confessional, do you
21 feel that you would have a duty to report that rape?
22 A. The law of the state of New Mexico so states
23 that. In a former deposition, you asked me that question.
24 In fact, you asked when did you become aware of the
25 statute. And I believe I mentioned to you that my
Page 136
1 awareness came when we were preparing the policy on
sexual
2 misconduct for the Archidocese of Santa Fe, which was
3 promulgated on July 1, 1990.
4 You indicated that the statute had become effective
5 sometime in the 1970s. I was unaware of such a statute or
6 even the date when it became effective. I'm not too
7 certain how many people were aware of it in the '70s. It
8 had not become a major issue among the legal profession
or
9 even among the teaching profession, people dealing with
10 children, etc.
11 MR. KONRAD: I want to object to the
12 question on the ground that it's form calls for a legal
13 conclusion, and state for the record that the New
Mexico
14 statute applies to abuse by a parent, guardian or
15 custodian. It does not say by a priest.
16 Q. Let me ask you this, Archbishop: If you had
17 received a letter from a parent where the child had, in
18 fact, reported, and the parents said, "My child was raped
19 by Father," would you have done anything about that in
20 terms of revealing the incident to civil authorities?
21 A. I think the first thing I would have done would
22 have been to meet with the family. The consequence for
23 civil authorities would probably be made known to me
by an
24 attorney, because I would feel that that's something that
25 I would need to have advice upon; and if that advice is
Page 137
1 given, I would ask the attorney to make it known or
2 perhaps the parents.
3 Q. Do you recall ever getting any letters from
4 anyone who said to you, "Father has raped my child"?
5 A. No letters stating rape.
6 Q. How about, "Father has sexually molested my
7 child"?
8 A. Allegations of molestation, yes.
9 Q. And did you ever report any of those to civil
10 authorities?
11 A. I spoke to civil authorities in one case.
12 Q. What case was that?
13 A. The Clive Lynn case.
14 Q. Now, did you receive such reports from parents
15 in more than just the Clive Lynn case?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you did not speak to civil authorities in
18 those other cases?
19 A. Did not. I spoke to the civil authority in the
20 Lynn case, Clive Lynn case, because the civil authority
21 had called about it, and we chatted regarding it. I was
22 even unaware at that time that there was an obligation
to
23 report.
24 Q. So even in the one conversation you had, it was
25 not one initiated by you?
Page 138
1 A. Yes. If a person is unaware of an obligation,
2 that's not something, then, that you're going to fulfill.
3 Q. Well, putting aside the statutory obligation of
4 reporting that the State of New Mexico may or may not
have
5 imposed on you, did you not feel a moral obligation to
6 report a priest in your charge who had raped a child?
7 A. In some instances, Mr. Pasternack, in dealing
8 with families, the family themselves would indicate that
9 they wanted this kept very quiet. The child, as well,
10 wanted it kept quiet and wanted us to deal with it as
best
11 we could that way. They did not want publicity. I did
12 not speak about the legal authorities. But their own
13 insistence seem to have been that they simply did not
want
14 a lot of talk or publicity or to-do about which they were
15 speaking.
16 Q. Forgive me, sir, but wasn't it your policy to,
17 in fact, communicate to the families that this was a
18 matter that should be kept within the Church and not
19 discussed with civil authorities?
20 A. No, it was not our policy that we had to keep
21 this within the Church. We never insisted that way. If
22 any parent felt that they wanted to go to civil
23 authorities, they had a right to go to civil authorities.
24 Q. You mentioned that you had received such -- a
25 letter, you know, complaining that the child had been
Page 139
1 sexually molested with regard to Clive Lynn, and I think
2 you said in some others. Do you recall the names of the
3 priests who were the subject of other written complaints
4 to you by parents or family members?
5 A. One that would come to mind right offhand was an
6 allegation about which we had a commission do an
7 investigation written by a mother or a grandmother of the
8 child, and that pertained to . The
9 investigation revealed that there had been no raping or no
10 real sexual encounter. And therefore, there was no
11 reporting of any kind that took place because of that.
12 Q. Any others?
13 A. I recall more the concept of people speaking to
14 their pastors and the pastor being able to bring that to
15 my attention, rather than in a letter form, but I'm trying
16 to think of a letter right offhand.
17 Q. Do you recall whether you ever got any letters
18 complaining that either Arthur Perrault or Sabine Griego
19 had sexually molested children?
20 A. I met with parents regarding Sabine Griego, and
21 I met with the family, the man and his wife and their
22 attorneys and therapists regarding Art Perrault.
23 Q. Sabine Griego was a friend of yours, wasn't he?
24 A. Almost all the priests of the archidocese were
25 my friends.
Page 140
1 Q. Was he, though, a more special friend, indeed
2 your best friend?
3 A. Oh, no, he was not my best friend. Special
4 inasmuch as he was one of the deans, because we had to
5 meet with deans more frequently. I would meet with him,
6 as well as the other deans. We did not spend time
7 together going to movies or recreation together. This was
8 not the type of friend that he was. I had other priest
9 friends who were closer to me for that.
10 Q. You lived with Sabine?
11 A. No, Sabine lived with me. And he lived with me
12 as a result of a consultation with his therapist and the
13 program of therapy that he had concluded at Southdown.
14 You recall I testified earlier that I was invited to
15 Southdown by the therapist for the exit interview; and
16 during that interview, they wanted to talk about where
his
17 residence would be, and it was recommended to me that
he
18 could -- if I would accept, that he would live with me,
so
19 that I might have monitoring supervision over any
people
20 who would come to see him.
21 And my stipulation to him was that no one was welcome
22 to visit him, outside of his family, immediate family,
23 because his mother is alive and his brothers. And he
24 agreed to that. That is why he lived with me.
25 And even in the living situation, there was no mutual
Page 141
1 going out to eat together, because his schedule was
simply
2 different from mine.
3 Q. Who would you describe as your best friends in
4 the priesthood?
5 A. In the archidocese?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. Father Leo Lucero. He's been my friend since we
8 were in high school together.
9 Q. If I understand correctly, Archbishop, the
10 Church's position on birth control was, is and remains
one
11 of opposition to it; is that right?
12 A. Artificial birth control.
13 Q. Yes, the use of devices or pills to prevent
14 conception?
15 A. Yes.
Page 150
1
2 MR. PASTERNACK: Why don't we knock it off
3 for today.
4 MR. GOFFE: The time is 5:04, as indicated
5 on the screen. This is the end of tape 2 of the
6 deposition of Archbishop Sanchez. We are going off the
7 record and will resume on the 13th of January.
8 [The deposition was recessed at 5:04 PM]


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