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1 SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT
COUNTY OF BERNALILLO
2 STATE OF NEW MEXICO
3
4 JOHN DOES I THROUGH III,
5 Plaintiffs,
6 vs. CV-91-11688
7 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE
ARCHDIOCESE
OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
8 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER,
BISHOP ARTHUR TAFOYA and CLARENCE GALLI,
9
Defendants.
10 _____________________________________________
11 JOHN DOES IV and V,
12 Plaintiffs,
13 vs. CV-91-11989
14 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE
ARCHDIOCESE
OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
15 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER,
BISHOP ARTHUR TAFOYA and CLARENCE GALLI,
16
Defendants.
17 _____________________________________________
18 JOHN DOES VI and VIII,
19 Plaintiffs,
20 vs. CV-91-12302
21 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE
ARCHDIOCESE
OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
22 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER,
BISHOP ARTHUR TAFOYA and CLARENCE GALLI,
23
Defendants.
Page 2
1 JOHN DOE VIII,
2 Plaintiff,
3 vs. CV-92-00128
4 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE
ARCHDIOCESE
OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
5 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER,
BISHOP ARTHUR TAFOYA and CLARENCE GALLI,
6
Defendants.
7 ____________________________________________
8 JOHN DOES IX and X,
9 Plaintiffs,
10 vs. CV-92-00312
11 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE
ARCHDIOCESE
OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
12 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER,
BISHOP ARTHUR TAFOYA and CLARENCE GALLI,
13
Defendants.
14 _____________________________________________
15 JOHN DOE XI through XVII,
16 Plaintiffs,
17 vs. CV-92-09746
18 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE
ARCHDIOCESE
OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
19 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER,
BISHOP ARTHUR TAFOYA and CLARENCE GALLI,
20
Defendants.
21
Page 3
1 JOHN DOE,
2 Plaintiff,
3 vs. CV-93-02879
4 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE
ARCHDIOCESE
OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
5 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER,
BISHOP ROBERT SANCHEZ and SERVANTS OF THE
6 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,
7 Defendants.
____________________________________________
8
JOHN DOE,
9
Plaintiff,
10
vs. CV-93-02881
11 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE
ARCHDIOCESE
12 OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER,
13 BISHOP ROBERT SANCHEZ and SERVANTS OF THE
PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,
14
Defendants.
15 _____________________________________
16 JOHN DOE,
17 Plaintiff,
18 vs. CV-93-02883
19 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE
ARCHDIOCESE
OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
20 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER,
BISHOP ROBERT SANCHEZ and SERVANTS OF THE
21 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,
22 Defendants.
Page 4
1 JOHN DOE,
2 Plaintiff,
3 vs. CV-93-06343
4 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE
ARCHDIOCESE
OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
5 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER,
BISHOP ROBERT SANCHEZ and SERVANTS OF THE
6 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,
7 Defendants.
_________________________________________________
8
JOHN DOE,
9
Plaintiff,
10
vs. CV-93-07186
11
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE
12 OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER,
13 BISHOP ROBERT SANCHEZ and SERVANTS OF THE
PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profiT corporation,
14
Defendants.
15 _____________________________________________
16 JOHN DOE,
17 Plaintiff,
18 vs. CV-93-07188
19 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE
ARCHDIOCESE
OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
20 JASON E. SIGLER a/k/a JAY B. SIGLER,
BISHOP ROBERT SANCHEZ and SERVANTS OF THE
21 PARACLETE, a New Mexico non-profit corporation,
22 Defendants.
Page 5
1
JOHN DOES I, II and III
2
Plaintiffs.
3
vs. CV-92-06892
4
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE
5 OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
ROMAN CATHOLIC DIOCESE OF FALL RIVER,
6 MASSACHUSETTS, a corporation sole, THE
SERVANTS
OF THE PARACLETE, INC., a New Mexico.
7 non-profit corporation, and JAMES R. PORTER,
8 Defendants.
_________________________________________________
9 JOHN DOE IV,
10 Plaintiff,
11 vs. CV-92-08011
12 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE
ARCHDIOCESE
OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
13 ROMAN CATHOLIC DIOCESE OF FALL RIVER,
MASSACHUSETTS, a corporation sole, THE SERVANTS
14 OF THE PARACLETE, INC, a New Mexico non-profit
corporation, and JAMES R. PORTER,
15
Defendants.
16 _____________________________________________
17 ELAINE MONTOYA and PAUL MONTOYA,
18 Plaintiffs,
19 vs. CV-92-08933
20 ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE
ARCHDIOCESE
OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
21 and FATHER ARTHUR J. PERRAULT,
22 Defendants.
Page 6
1
MICHAEL D. HARRIS, DANA KAINZ,
2 PETER D. ST. CYR, CONRAD L. JIRON,
and ED TRUJILLO,
3
Plaintiffs,
4
vs. CV-92-10319
5
ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THE ARCHDIOCESE
6 OF SANTA FE, INC., a New Mexico corporation,
and FATHER ARTHUR J. PERRAULT,
7
Defendants.
8
_________________________________________________
9
10
11
DEPOSITION OF ROBERT F. SANCHEZ
12 VOLUME I
January 12, 1994
13 11:28 AM
5625 Isleta Boulevard, SW
14 Albuquerque, NM
15
16 TAKEN BY: BRUCE PASTERNACK, ESQ.
ATTORNEY FOR PLAINTIFFS
17
18 REPORTED BY: Jenifer L. Russin, RPR-CM, NM CCR
#182
Russin Reporting
19 317 Commercial, NE, Suite 200-G
Albuquerque, NM 87102
20
Page 7
1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2 For the Plaintiffs:
3 BRUCE E. PASTERNACK, P.C.
Two Woodward Center
4 700 Lomas, NE, Suite 100
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102
5 BY: BRUCE E. PASTERNACK and
NEIL R. BLAKE
6
STEPHEN E. TINKLER
7 MERIT BENNETT
425 Sandoval
8 Santa Fe, New Mexico 87504
9 REESE & MATHEY
160 E. Flaming Gorge
10 Green River, Wyoming 82935
BY: ROBERT J. REESE
11
12 For the Witness:
13 STOUT & WINTERBOTTOM
Attorneys at Law
14 718 Central, SW
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102
15 BY: RICHARD A. WINTERBOTTOM
16
For the Defendant Archdiocese of Santa Fe:
17
SIMONS, CUDDY & FRIEDMAN
18 6400 Uptown Blvd, NE, Suite 630E
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87110
19 BY: KAREN C. KENNEDY
20 KELEHER & McLEOD, P.A.
414 Silver Avenue, SW
21 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102
BY: ARTHUR O. BEACH
22
EAVES, BARDACKE & BAUGH, P.A.
23 6400 Uptown Blvd., NE
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87110
24 BY: PAUL BARDACKE
Page 8
1 For the Archdiocese of Santa Fe (cont.):
2 SHEEHAN, SHEEHAN & STELZNER
707 Broadway, NE
3 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102
BY: LUIS STELZNER
4
5 For the Servants of the Paraclete:
6 MILLER, STRATVERT, TORGERSON & SCHLENKER,
P.A.
500 Marquette, NW, Suite 1100
7 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102
BY: ALAN KONRAD
8 JILL BURTRAM
9
Also Present:
10
Jerry Goffe
11-15 (blank)
16 I N D E X
17 PAGE
18 EXAMINATION OF ROBERT F. SANCHEZ
19 By Mr. Pasternack 9
20
21 EXHIBITS FORMALLY MARKED/IDENTIFIED
22 PAGE
23 1. Order on Motion for Protective Order 9
Page 9
1 MR. GOFFE: The time, as indicated on the
2 screen, is 11:32 AM. Today is January 12th, 1994. We are
3 on the record. Could the court reporter please swear the
4 deponent in.
5 ROBERT F. SANCHEZ
6 After having been first duly sworn under oath, was
7 questioned and testified as follows:
8 EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. PASTERNACK:
10 Q. Please state your name.
11 A. Archbishop Robert F. Sanchez.
12 Q. And will it be acceptable to you, sir, if I
13 refer to you during the deposition as Archbishop?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. Thank you. Archbishop, as you know, we have
16 sought to take your deposition today, and Judge Ashby
has
17 entered his own order, which I'll attach as Exhibit 1 to
18 the deposition, and that will guide the course and scope
19 of the deposition. I'm sure you've been made familiar
20 with it by now.
21 [Exhibit 1 was marked for identification.]
22 MS. KENNEDY: Do you wish him to read that?
23 MR. PASTERNACK: I assume he's aware of it.
24 Do you have any --
25 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: No, we can continue. If
Page 10
1 we need to look at it over the lunch hour, we can, unless
2 we come to an issue that requires reference to the order.
3 MR. PASTERNACK: Okay, fine.
4 Q. Sir, are you currently under any medication?
5 A. No, sir, I'm not.
6 Q. Have you been under any medication within the
7 last 30 days?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. Where do you currently consider your residence
10 to be?
11 A. For the sake of this deposition, it would be the
12 same address as my attorney here.
13 Q. When you're not here in Albuquerque, where do
14 you physically reside?
15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: We'll object to that,
16 Mr. Pasternack. That matter was broached during the
17 course of our hearing on Wednesday. The Court has not
18 made a specific order with regard to Exhibit 1, but it
was
19 clear during the course of that hearing that the
20 Archbishop was not revealing his current location.
21 If you'd like to go to the judge over the lunch
22 hour with regard to that question, we don't have any
23 problem with that.
24 Q. Are you declining to answer, Archbishop?
25 A. Yes.
Page 11
1 Q. What is your current status with the Archidocese
2 of Santa Fe?
3 A. I'm retired, retired archbishop.
4 Q. Do you have priestly faculties still?
5 A. An archbishop has, in his capacity, has
6 faculties to function anywhere in the world, unless they
7 are limited by the local ordinary. My function at this
8 time is simply the celebration of Mass.
9 Q. Do you continue to celebrate Mass on occasion?
10 A. Oh, yes, daily.
11 Q. And do you celebrate only privately or publicly,
12 as well?
13 A. Privately, actually.
14 Q. Are you permitted to celebrate Mass publicly?
15 A. I have not sought that permission, but I would
16 be permitted, yes.
17 Q. Are there any restrictions on your priestly
18 functions which have been imposed by any diocese or
19 archidocese?
20 A. None.
21 Q. And none by Rome?
22 A. None.
23 Q. Have you met with the Pope in the past 12
24 months?
25 A. No, I have not.
Page 12
1 Q. Have you communicated with him by telephone in
2 the past year?
3 A. No, I have not.
4 Q. You will recall, sir, that when your deposition
5 was taken before, there was discussion about a softball
6 backstop falling on your head and a car wreck in 1983?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Within the past year, have you received any sort
9 of medical, psychological or neuropsychological
treatment
10 or counseling for any injuries resulting -- any deficits
11 resulting from those injuries?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you feel that your memory is functioning at
14 its normal level today?
15 A. I would have to assume that it is, yes.
16 Q. Have you had any sort of psychometric testing
17 within the past year?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Have you received within the past year any
20 psychological or psychiatric care or counseling?
21 A. Counseling.
22 Q. Was it a psychiatrist or a psychologist?
23 A. It is a psychiatrist.
24 Q. Can you tell me that person's name?
25 A. No, I would prefer not to, simply because it is
Page 13
1 also concerned with the location of where I'm at, and I've
2 been assured that we do not have to reveal that.
3 Q. So you're declining to answer?
4 A. I'm declining to answer, yes, sir.
5 Q. Did this psychiatrist ever place you on any
6 medication?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did the psychiatrist refer you for any sort of
9 testing whatsoever, MMPI, Beck, any of them?
10 A. No.
11 Q. How frequently do you see the psychiatrist?
12 A. Oh, probably on an average of twice a week. The
13 type of information that we share with is also spiritual.
14 It is not what you'd call typical therapeutic care.
15 It's --
16 Q. I know there are some psychiatrists and
17 psychologists who are priests.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would this happen to be a priest?
20 A. The psychiatrist is a religious.
21 Q. So that would be a member of some order?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you feel you can tell me what order he is a
24 member of?
25 A. No, I cannot.
Page 14
1 Q. Would you be willing, Archbishop, to allow us to
2 examine the medical records pertaining to your injury in
3 1961 and your injury in 1983?
4 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, I think
5 we've stated, as Archbishop's attorneys, that we are not
6 willing to offer you those records.
7 Q. Because we are taking this deposition in some
8 cases where I believe your deposition has not been taken
9 before, perhaps we could run through your, briefly,
10 through your background. Would you just give us a
11 narrative of when and where trained, ordained, etc.
12 A. I was born in Socorro, New Mexico. The date was
13 March 20th, 1934. My parents were Julius and Priscilla
14 Sanchez. I have two brothers, both live in this
15 community: Rozier, who is a retired district judge, and
16 Julius, who is a pharmacist, works for the Veterans
17 Hospital.
18 My education was received at Mount Carmel School
19 elementary school for eight years. I attended the public
20 high school in Socorro for one year. I attended St.
21 Mary's High School in Phoenix, Arizona, for one year,
and
22 then entered the seminary, Immaculate Heart of Mary
23 Seminary in Santa Fe, to begin my training and
formation
24 hopefully for priesthood.
25 I spent four years at the minor seminary in Santa Fe,
Page 15
1 and then was asked to complete my studies and
preparation
2 for the priesthood at the North American College in
Rome,
3 Italy. That is a college where seminarians from
4 throughout America stay, at the North American College,
5 but classes were actually studied or taken at the
6 Gregorian University in Rome.
7 I completed my studies in 1960, but I was ordained on
8 December 20th, 1959 at the North American College in
Rome.
9 Upon completion of my studies in July 1960, then I
10 returned to the Archidocese of Santa Fe for assignment.
11 Q. And would you describe what those assignments
12 were?
13 A. My first assignment was to be an associate
14 pastor or an assistant pastor, as some people call them,
15 at Anunciation Parish here in Albuquerque. And I was
16 asked at the same time to be one of the staff members,
a
17 teacher, at St. Pius X High School in Albuquerque.
18 I taught and remained in that position for one year;
19 and then at the conclusion of that year, I was asked by
20 the archbishop at that time, Archbishop Edwin V. Byrne,
to
21 plan to attend studies in canon law at Catholic
University
22 in Washington, D.C.
23 I entered the Catholic University, then, in the fall,
24 and was there for one year. At the conclusion of that
25 year of study, the Archbishop asked me again if I would
Page 16
1 then return to St. Pius as a staff member and assist in
2 their programs, which I did.
3 I remained at St. Pius, then, until 1968, at which
4 time the next archbishop, who was James Peter Davis,
asked
5 me to accept the position of pastor in a northeastern area
6 of New Mexico. It was a pastorship of two communities
of
7 Roy and Mosquero, and they were combined into one
parish
8 for my purposes.
9 I remained there for three years, after which time I
10 was asked by the archbishop to then assume another
11 position, back here in Albuquerque, and I moved back to
12 Albuquerque, then, in September of 1971, and I assumed
a
13 position of pastor of San Felipe Parish in Old Town,
14 Albuquerque. I remained there for three years until my --
15 I was named as the archbishop. I was named archbishop.
16 The announcement took place June 4th of that year,
1974,
17 and I was formally ordained and installed in that
position
18 on July 25th, 1974.
19 Q. And you served in that position continuously
20 until what date?
21 A. Until my resignation was accepted. And I was
22 notified of that acceptance in early April of 1993. I
23 cannot recall the date, but it was on Monday of Holy
Week.
24 I would have to go to a calendar to see what the actual
25 date was. It was early April of 1993.
Page 17
1 Q. Are the things that you have just recited about
2 your personal history, education and work experience
3 contained on a written resume, or did you just recall all
4 those things?
5 A. I recalled all of those things, but they are
6 written down in resume form, surely.
7 Q. Have you reviewed your resume in the past few
8 months?
9 A. No, I have not. I haven't had a chance to.
10 Q. And you didn't review it today?
11 A. No, I did not review it today.
12 Q. When you indicate that you are retired from the
13 Santa Fe Archidocese, are you receiving a pension from
the
14 archidocese?
15 A. The Archidocese of Santa Fe has a retirement
16 fund which had been worked on to help it become
adequate
17 for priests for many years, and it is a separately
18 incorporated body with its own constitution that governs
19 its activities. And when I submitted my resignation or
my
20 resignation was accepted, then petition was made to the
21 governing board of the retirement board of the
archidocese
22 to consider myself for retirement. And I understand that
23 that was granted and made effective in early July 1993.
24 Q. Does the current archbishop, Archbishop Sheehan,
25 communicate in any fashion with your psychiatrist?
Page 18
1 A. Not that I know of.
2 Q. Have you authorized your psychiatrist to release
3 or reveal information to the current archbishop?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Is there any person to whom you have authorized
6 your psychiatrist to reveal information about your mental
7 status?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Is the Archidocese of Santa Fe paying for the
10 bills that are incurred in the therapy with the
11 psychiatrist?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Are you at liberty to tell me how that's being
14 paid?
15 A. The insurance under which I was covered was able
16 to cover 50 percent of the bills, up to when they reach a
17 limit, and they no longer contribute to it.
18 I tried to contribute to that payment myself, when I
19 was able, but I was informed by that community that
20 whatever was available was fine. If I could not pay
21 anything, there would be no obligation. So in a sense, it
22 is a service that is offered to me.
23 Q. Have you been given any projections on how long
24 you will need to remain in this therapy?
25 A. No, no projections at all. It's -- we simply go
Page 19
1 from, I guess, meeting to meeting, and it's helped me
look
2 at my own life and my own spiritual life, and I'm grateful
3 for that opportunity.
4 Q. You do not have any plans to terminate this
5 therapy in the near future; is that right?
6 A. I would have to discuss that with the therapist,
7 actually. But from my point of view, I don't see it
8 terminating in a very near future, no.
9 Q. Has the therapist, to your knowledge, discussed
10 your psychiatric condition with any other members of
the
11 religious community from which he works?
12 A. No, not to my knowledge.
13 Q. And have you discussed your spiritual and
14 psychiatric needs with any other members of that
15 community?
16 A. Not really, no. "How are you feeling," "Feeling
17 fine," this type of thing. But no in-depth discussion.
18 Q. Have you been hospitalized at any time since
19 April of '93?
20 A. No, I have not been.
21 Q. Other than with your attorney, Mr. Winterbottom,
22 did you have any conversations with any other attorneys
23 before coming here today for this deposition?
24 A. Most of my conversation was with Mr.
25 Winterbottom. I had opportunity to speak with Karen
Page 20
1 Kennedy for about an hour two nights ago.
2 Q. Was that in Albuquerque or by phone?
3 A. That was here in Albuquerque.
4 Q. Have you spoken with Father Wolf about the
5 deposition?
6 A. Other than for him to tell me that he's taking
7 care of the arrangements.
8 Q. Have you spoken to Archbishop Sheehan about the
9 deposition?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Anyone else?
12 A. No, no one.
13 Q. At the time of your conversation with Ms.
14 Kennedy, did you consider her to be your lawyer?
15 MS. KENNEDY: Mr. Pasternack, you are well
16 aware that I'm counsel of record for the Archidocese. In
17 my meetings with the Archbishop, it has been
18 attorney-client privilege, and I will not allow him to
19 answer any questions about those meetings.
20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I join in that Mr.
21 Pasternack. During all the conversations that the
22 Archbishop has described of two nights ago, I was
present
23 with Ms. Kennedy.
24 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Just to make sure the
25 record is clear, Archbishop, I didn't ask the content of
Page 21
1 the conversation. I asked if you considered her to be
2 your lawyer.
3 A. Mr. Winterbottom is my lawyer. Karen Kennedy
4 has been the lawyer associated with the Archidocese of
5 Santa Fe. She is not considered my personal lawyer.
6 Q. And would it be correct to say, you are no
7 longer an official of the Archidocese of Santa Fe?
8 A. That is right.
9 Q. And now the question is, are you declining to
10 discuss what you discussed with Ms. Kennedy during
that
11 meeting?
12 MS. KENNEDY: I'm instructing him not to
13 answer, Mr. Pasternack, because, as you know, it is
14 attorney/client privilege.
15 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I join in that.
16 Q. While those of us here may know what
17 precipitated your resignation as archbishop, those who
may
18 be viewing this videotape as jurors in the future may not
19 know what precipitated your resignation. Could you
20 describe in your own words what motivated you to
tender
21 your resignation?
22 A. Yes, sir. I reached the decision to tender my
23 resignation due to the fact that three women had come
to
24 yourself and had offered information to you and
25 subsequently went to "60 Minutes," a national television
Page 22
1 program, where they stated that we had had a relationship
2 in the 1970s, and they felt that this should be published.
3 Once that became public knowledge, I felt that it
4 would become an issue with the people of the
archidocese,
5 that there would be those who would feel that they could
6 still accept me as their archbishop, but there would be
7 others who would probably feel they couldn't. And I have
8 always felt that unity within any church group is
9 essential, just as unity within a country is essential.
10 And if I could no longer effectively lead the church as
11 their archbishop, uniting them together, then it would be
12 best for me to submit my resignation and allow another
13 person to be appointed in my place.
14 So I felt that that would be the proper action to
15 take, which I did take.
16 Q. I understand that you've fairly recently had an
17 opportunity to review or watch the "60 Minutes"
program;
18 is that right?
19 A. I have not watched the "60 Minutes" program at
20 all.
21 Q. The reason I ask the question was I believe that
22 Father Wolf indicated to the newspapers that you had
23 watched it, but I'm glad we're clarified that.
24 A. No, I have not watched it.
25 Q. Has anyone told you what the allegations of the
Page 23
1 women were?
2 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: At this time, I'll
3 object to the extent that that inquires into the
4 attorney/client relationship. Aside from conversations
5 with attorneys, I'll allow him to answer the question.
6 A. No one could really tell me specifically or, you
7 know, in detail what was contained. They mentioned
8 general allegations that the young women had made. And
9 that was about the extent of it.
Page 32
1-3 (deleted)
4 Q. In the general philosophy of the Catholic
5 Church -- I'd like to ask you a few questions about
6 that -- is lying a sin?
7 A. Lying is considered a sin, yes. And if it's in
8 a serious case, it's considered more serious.
9 Q. Is there ever a justification for lying in the
10 philosophy of the Church, as you understand it?
11 A. No. Lying is considered a falsification of the
12 truth, and it is considered sinful. A person might lie to
13 save their life. For instance, during the Second World
14 War when, say, the Nazis were trying to round up many
of
15 our brothers of the Jewish faith, they may have lied so
as
16 to save their own children or their lives. That might be
17 considered -- the circumstances might be prevailing for
18 them to be able to do that, because the evil that they
19 were avoiding would be greater than the act of lying. So
20 there are occasions when lying of that nature would be
21 permissible.
22 Q. Is that type of lying referred to with any
23 special appellation in canon law or Church doctrine?
24 A. I don't recall it myself. It probably has a
25 technical reference, a technical expression, but I don't
Page 33
1 recall that expression.
2 Q. Is it a mental reservation?
3 A. Possibly. It could be possibly called that.
4 The example I used would be obviously more than a
mental
5 reservation. It would simply be saying that they were not
6 in order to save their life.
7 Maybe the mental reservation would be that if they
8 told the truth, their life would be taken, and that's a
9 greater good that they have an obligation to preserve. So
10 possibly a mental reservation.
11 Q. Can you give us any guidance on where the line
12 is. I think it's clear when you say that one can lie to
13 save their life, that's acceptable in Church doctrine.
14 Can one lie to save their reputation?
15 A. No, that would not be acceptable.
16 Q. Can one lie to save the reputation of the Church
17 or of the diocese or archidocese?
18 A. That would not be acceptable either.
19 Q. Can one lie to save the reputation of a brother
20 priest?
21 A. No, that would not be acceptable either. I'm
22 not a moralist, an expert in moral theology, but these
23 examples that you have cited seem to me to fall under
the
24 concept that lying itself is wrong.
25 Q. In your extensive education for the priesthood,
Page 34
1 were you required to receive instruction in the promises
2 of chastity and celibacy?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you generally explain what chastity and
5 celibacy are in the views of the Church?
6 A. Yes. Celibacy is a state, a single state, or a
7 promise to live a life as a single person without the
8 privilege of marriage; and it includes, then, a promise to
9 refrain from those circumstances that might tend to break
10 that promise or that state of celibacy.
11 Chastity is a moral virtue, as looked at by the Roman
12 Catholic Church, and it includes the avoidance of all
13 actions or circumstances that might lead to sins against
14 the virtue of chastity which surround the Sixth
15 Commandment, that of sexuality.
16 The virtue of chastity, as the Roman Catholic Church
17 observes it, looks at it, is incumbent upon all people
18 within the Church. Married couples are obliged to live a
19 chaste life within their own vows of marriage. Single
20 individuals, whether they are religious or simply single
21 without vows, are also obliged to live a chaste life to
22 the best of their ability.
23 So chastity is a virtue. Celibacy is a state of
24 life.
25 Q. When you say chastity is a virtue, does that
Page 35
1 mean that when a priest takes a promise or a vow of
2 chastity, it's a goal rather than a necessity to comply
3 with that vow or promise?
4 A. It's not a vow of chastity that the diocesan
5 priests take, but let's use the word "promise." I think
6 that would be easy to understand. Whenever a promise is
7 taken, it is taken, looking at chastity, as the goal, as
8 the ideal. And we strive to live a chaste life as
9 perfectly as possible, and that living out of a chaste
10 life is encouraged by surrounding yourself with what we
11 call a spiritual life, a spiritual structure, which
12 involves regular prayer, which involves frequent
13 confession, which involves a support group of other
14 individuals who can talk with you and share
encouragement
15 to be faithful to your life of chastity or religious.
16 Q. There may be people seeing this tape at some
17 point in a trial, for example, who are not Catholic. And
18 when you use words like "encourage" and "goal," that
19 suggests to me -- and I'd like to ask you if my
20 interpretation is wrong -- that a breach of the promise of
21 chastity is sort of optional if you find it too difficult
22 to comply with?
23 A. No, I am not trying to indicate that. I'm
24 saying that given human nature, the vow of chastity or
25 just the life -- a chaste life for any individual will be
Page 36
1 fraught with difficulties throughout their life because of
2 human nature, just as the promise or the virtue of honesty
3 is difficult throughout a person's life. But we're
4 obliged to live those virtues as perfectly as we can.
5 Q. Is it considered by the Church, as you interpret
6 Church law and doctrine, to be a sin for a priest to
7 breach the promise of chastity?
8 A. It is.
9 Q. Is there a degree of sin that you could classify
10 it as?
11 A. Yes. There is what we call venial sin or mortal
12 sin. That is a less serious offense against that virtue,
13 or a more serious offense against that virtue.
14 Generally speaking, in dealing with actions in
15 reference to the Sixth Commandment, or the vow of
16 chastity, they would be considered serious, unless there
17 are circumstances which might affect the full willful
18 action by that individual.
19 Just to give you an example -- would an example be in
20 order?
21 Q. I was getting ready to ask for one, so yes, I'd
22 appreciate it.
23 A. I've anticipated your request.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. I think the easiest example that I could use for
Page 37
1 a general understanding would be a person who's
2 intoxicated. A person who is intoxicated, I think even
3 civilly, is considered not to be in full control of their
4 own faculties or their full will. And therefore, actions
5 committed under those circumstances would have to be
6 looked at individually and perhaps differently than from
7 similar actions committed by someone else.
8 Objectively, they're the same actions, but
9 subjectively, there's been a change for the individual
10 because he was not in total possession of his faculties of
11 mind or of will.
12 The same thing pertains to a contract. We know that
13 if two people are to get married, they're entering into a
14 contract. If one feels forced, then the free will of that
15 individual has been impeded, and he's not entering or
16 she's not entering into the will totally free. And so
17 subjectively, it's not the same.
18 So I'm saying that there are circumstances for any
19 situation, any moral situation, which can mitigate the
20 culpability of an individual regarding whatever action it
21 may be that he has taken.
22 Q. Would you refer to that as situation ethics?
23 A. To a degree, but it's not really what situation
24 ethics is. This is a technical expression that the Church
25 has actually not approved of, because it was a
movement by
Page 38
1 some theologians saying that every ethical question
really
2 does not have objective guilt to it, that it all depends
3 upon the situation, and the situation can mitigate things.
4 And it was a denial of objective truth or objective
5 morality, and so that was never approved by the Roman
6 Catholic Church, even though some theologians held that.
7 But I'd say it's akin to that inasmuch as there are
8 some circumstances which do affect the subjective guilt
or
9 less guilt of an individual because of the presence of
10 that circumstance, mitigating circumstance.
11 Q. Does the Church take the position, as you
12 interpret its rules, that there is objective evil?
13 A. Oh, yes, yes. The Church, in fact, just
14 recently, within the last year, the Holy Father has come
15 out with a document on ethics, on morality, in which he
16 stresses that objective evil and objective truth, once
17 again, because of a tendency within the world
community,
18 not just within one area or one country, to deny
objective
19 truth or objective right or wrong.
20-25 (deleted)
Page 45
1-20 (deleted)
21 Q. Once you became archbishop, did you feel a
22 greater responsibility to comply with all priestly
23 promises to set an example thereby for the priests who
24 served under you?
25 A. I don't know whether I could characterize it as
Page 46
1 a feeling of having a greater responsibility. And I say
2 that because I believe that every priest feels a sense of
3 responsibility within themselves to live out their own
4 promises before God as perfectly as they are able. And I
5 don't recall -- I did sense a greater responsibility
6 because the number of people who I would have to
minister
7 to was much greater. And I think that that was the
8 overwhelming feeling that I felt at that time.
9 Q. Did the fact that you had succumbed on occasion
10 to the temptations of the flesh give you a greater
11 sensitivity to similar failings by your brother priests?
12 A. What do you mean by "sensitivity"?
13 Q. When you found out that other priests had
14 violated their promises of chastity, did it occur to you,
15 "I too have known the temptations of the flesh. I too
16 have been weak," and did you thereby tend to be more
17 forgiving of them than you otherwise would have been?
18 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, could
19 you, for a matter of clarification, describe exactly what
20 temptations of the flesh you're discussing with regard to
21 others priests, so the archbishop can phrase his response
22 in terms of ones that were, for instance, heterosexual,
23 homosexual or pedophilia?
24 Q. Do you understand the question, Archbishop?
25 A. Yes, I think I do.
Page 47
1 Q. Go ahead.
2 A. What are you talking specifically to?
3 Q. What I'm asking you is that because you had
4 known the temptations of the flesh and apparently, on
5 occasion, given in to them, when you were advised --
which
6 we will discuss later we're going to contend was on
7 numerous occasions.
8 A. Surely.
9 Q. -- that other priests had similarly fallen to
10 the temptations of the flesh, did your own failings make
11 you more sensitive and more understanding?
12 MR. KONRAD: I have an objection to the
13 form of the question, the "numerous times" reference not
14 necessarily being in evidence.
15 Q. Go ahead.
16 A. I would say offhand that I have always been a
17 compassionate person, and that aside from any personal
18 failures. And I think I've learned my compassion both
19 from the example of my family, friends, as well as
20 seminary training, because part of the Church's training,
21 our theology, is to follow the compassion of the Christ.
22 Christ did not come into the world to save those who
23 were saints but, in his own words, to save those who are
24 in need of the physician, those who have sinned. And he
25 even spoke to the woman caught in adultery to those
who
Page 48
1 surrounded her, "Let those who are without sin cast the
2 first stone." And he said this not to justify evil or to
3 justify sin, but rather to emphasize the need for
4 compassion, because, "There for but the grace of God go
5 I."
6 I had always been steeped in that concept of
7 compassion. I cannot say honestly whether I was more
8 compassionate to any man who admitted guilt to me
because
9 of my own sin. I would like to believe that I would have
10 been as compassionate if I had never sinned, because
that
11 is how I was trained, and that is part of my character.
12 I would say this, that knowing my own failure, I
13 would have been able to speak directly to them perhaps
14 with more serious admonition about the care for their
own
15 spirituality and their spiritual life, how to improve
16 their own life and to be honest before God.
17 I suppose it would be like -- well, maybe like a
18 parent, a parent who was imperfect and recognizes their
19 own failure as a parent, and then they catch their son or
20 their daughter in whatever, and they have to correct
them.
21 And they are sensitive to the failure of the son or
22 daughter, but I think that they would probably correct
23 them just as sternly to encourage them not to repeat that
24 in the future. I think they would show sensitivity -- or
25 compassion is the word that I would use. At the same
Page 49
1 time, I don't think they would be approving of the sin, in
2 other words, of the son or the daughter, and that's why I
3 use the example of Christ.
4 Q. Would it be correct to say, Archbishop, that
5 substance abuse by priests is not permitted in your
6 understanding of Catholic moral teachings?
7 A. I think substance abuse by any human being is
8 really against the law of God, because it's the
9 destruction of the human person, our life. Life is God's
10 gift to us, and when we abuse it in any form, then we
are
11 going against the Commandment that says, "Thou shalt
not
12 kill," which is yourself, and so substance abuse would
be
13 violating that.
14 Q. And would your view be the same -- I'm sure it
15 would -- as to matters of child pornography? Is it
16 impermissible for a priest, or indeed any Catholic, to
17 engage in the production of child pornography?
18 A. Absolutely not. That would be, again, very
19 sinful and very wrong against society, as well, certainly.
20 Q. Do you know other bishops or archbishops from
21 throughout the country and the world who have been
22 sexually active?
23 A. There was one bishop who resigned years ago, and
24 I can't even recall his name. He was from Minnesota,
but
25 he resigned as a bishop in order to marry a woman, and
so
Page 50
1 I would have to presume that he was active. In fact, he
2 lived in Santa Fe for a while. I don't recall his name.
3 It was a little bit before my time.
4 There was another archbishop from Atlanta who
5 resigned his position because of allegations.
6 There was another that I heard about -- and I don't
7 know the particulars on it -- that was from Ireland,
8 perhaps three or four years ago, five years ago, I don't
9 know the particulars, that he also resigned because of
10 allegations.
11 Q. Those were the stories that were rather public.
12 Do you know of any bishops or archbishops who have
been
13 sexually active where it has not been publicly revealed?
14 A. No, sir, I do not.
15 Q. I apologize for asking this question. Have you
16 ever had any children?
17 A. No, sir, I have never had any children. Now, I
18 want to repeat that, so that it's very clear. I have
19 never had any children. And I understand it's difficult
20 to ask a question like that.
21 Q. During your service as a priest of the
22 archidocese and then as archbishop of the Archidocese
of
23 Santa Fe, were there priests whom you knew to be
sexually
24 active?
25 A. As an archbishop, I had occasion to meet with a
Page 51
1 priest, actually with two, over my tenure of nearly 19
2 years, that had in fact fathered children. And it was
3 brought to my attention, and so we had to take those
steps
4 that were necessary for those occasions.
5 Q. One of those was Roger Martinez, I'm sure?
6 A. Yes, it was Father Roger Martinez, exactly.
7 Q. Who is the other one?
8 A. Father John Esquivel.
9 Q. Now, you say that certain steps were taken?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Both men remained as parish priests. What steps
12 were taken?
13 A. They were sent to therapy. They were obliged to
14 provide for the child. So that their human obligations
15 were cared for, as well. And they were removed from
their
16 positions until therapy had been completed and
17 recommendations for any future assignment would be
given.
18 Q. Now, my question had been intended to be a
19 little more broad, not just the priests who had fathered
20 children, but the priests who had in fact been sexually
21 active. Were there priests of the Archidocese of Santa
Fe
22 during your tenure as archbishop whom you learned to
be
23 sexually active with boys, men, women, sexually active
in
24 any way?
25 A. Cases were brought to my attention or
Page 52
1 allegations regarding priests during my 19 years; and in
2 some instances, admissions took place of their sexual
3 activity. In other cases, there was no admission. And so
4 I did have occasion to meet with priests about whom
sexual
5 activity was alleged.
6 Q. Please give us the names of some of those
7 priests whose names you recall as being presented to you
8 under such circumstances.
9 A. The name of was one name.
10 was another name. was another name.
11 was another name. Then I would add to that
12 was another name. I've just referred to
13 him. was another name. was
14 another name. was another name. I'm going flat
15 on my trying to recall others.
16 Q. ?
17 A. Yes, oh, yes, .
18 Q. ?
19 A. Those were allegations -- right,
20 , I recall that name.
21-24 (deleted)
25 A. Yes, that came --
Page 53
1 MR. BARDACKE: Excuse me, I didn't hear
2 that name.
3 Q. ?
4 A. It requires a special spelling. Have you a list
5 that maybe I could --
6 Q. I'll just go down them one by one.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. Is he one that you had heard of as being
9 involved in sexual activity?
10 A. Yes, this occurred just about the time I was
11 leaving, I believe.
12-15 (deleted)
16 Q. Anthony Gallegos, whom I believe was raised with
17 you in Socorro?
18 A. No, he was not.
19 Q. Wasn't he?
20 A. No. Anthony Gallegos left very shortly after he
21 was ordained a priest for this archidocese, and he left to
22 CaliforniA. We never saw him again. I am unaware of
any
23 allegations that were raised against him. I was not the
24 archbishop when he was ordained.
25
Page 54
1-5 (deleted)
6 Q. Barney Bissanette?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you aware of such allegations when you were
9 archbishop?
10 A. Not allegations. There was talk, but not
11 allegations. I think allegations came about, again -- I'm
12 not certain when, actually, but not while I was the
13 archbishop.
14-23 (deleted)
24 Q. ?
25 A. That case became a public case. It was never
Page 55
1 taken to trial or completed, but the allegations were
made
2 during my tenure.
3-8 (deleted)
9 Q. ?
10 A. Yes. Some statement was made -- I don't know
11 the person. I did not handle that at all. Father Wolf
12 informed me that some allegation had been made after
his
13 retirement.
14 Q. Robert Kirsch?
15 A. The case was handled by yourself.
16 Q. Had you heard any such allegations of sexual
17 impropriety against Father Vincent Lipinski before he
was
18 arrested?
19 A. Before he was arrested, there was one notice
20 brought to me thirdhand, but no allegation.
21-25 (deleted)
Page 56
1-4 (deleted)
5 Q. ?
6 A. One allegation, yes.
7 Q. Charlie Martinez?
8 A. No, nothing.
9-22 (deleted)
23 Q. Father Luis Martinez?
24 A. No, sir.
25
Page 57
1
2 Q. Father ?
3 A. One allegation was made, yes.
4 Q. Was that before or after you became archbishop?
5 A. After I became archbishop, yes. I can't really
6 recall much about it, but the name rings a bell.
7 Q. Did you relieve him from his duties at
8 for sexually molesting young girls there?
9 A. Your statement is a very accusing one. He was
10 not accused of molesting young girls at . That
11 was not the allegation.
12 Q. What was the allegation?
13 A. I could be mistaken, and so I don't want to be
14 held to it, because my memory is not accurate. I did not
15 handle that individual case. He belongs to a religious
16 community, and so it was placed in their hands, the
entire
17 thing. So I didn't do the investigation, but the
18 community did.
19 Q. What do you recall the allegations to have been?
20 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you remember,
21 Archbishop.
22 A. I think it was solicitation, but there was no
23 actual contact with people.
24 Q. Solicitation of girls or boys?
25 A. Of a lady.
Page 58
1-12 (deleted)
13 Q. Were there any allegations of sexual impropriety
14 brought up during your tenure as archbishop against
Father
15 ?
16 A. One.
17-25 (deleted)
Page 59
1-22 (deleted)
23 Q. Father Ron Roth?
24 A. I don't know who Father Ron Roth was.
25
Page 60
1
2 Q. Father Edward Rutowski?
3 A. Once, one occasion.
4-13 (deleted)
14 Q. Okay. Father Ignacio Tafoya?
15 A. Nothing was brought to my attention directly,
16 sir.
17 Q. How about indirectly?
18 A. Indirectly this way: Father Tafoya himself
19 said, "Archbishop, someone has made a statement to
Sister
20 about me," and, he said, "it's a lie. I just wanted you
21 to know that a statement has been made."
22 So no statement was made directly to me. It was from
23 the priest himself.
24 Q. Father ?
25 A. No, no allegations were made to me against him
Page 61
1 either.
2 Q. Did you know whether or not Father was
3 gay?
4 A. I was never certain. I was never certain. He
5 never gave me any indications that he was gay, never did
6 anything overtly that you might associate with a gay
7 individual.
8 On one occasion, you indicated to me that he had been
9 seen at a gay bar, and that concerned me. That put the
10 question mark in my mind.
11 Q. Did you ever talk to him about that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What did he say?
14 A. He said he had been there, but he had not gone
15 there for pick-ups or anything of this nature. He had
16 gone there for a drink.
17 Q. Did you believe him?
18 A. I had no other choice but to accept his reply.
19 But I also had a few things to say.
20 Q. What?
21 A. My own personal feelings about anyone visiting a
22 gay bar.
23 Q. Were you opposed to that?
24 A. Absolutely.
25 Q. Okay.
Page 62
1 A. That's what I mean.
2 Q. Were you responsible for his departure as the
3 for the Santa Fe Archidocese?
4 A. No, I was not. He was the when I
5 left the archidocese.
6 Q. ?
7 A. . No, no allegations were ever
8 brought against .
9 Q. Did you know whether or not he was gay?
10 A. I did not know that he was gay, and I don't know
11 that for a fact even at this moment. I'm trying to recall
12 whether he was one of those on that list that you had. I
13 think his name was there, and I think he was one that
we
14 contacted and confronted with that.
15 Q. Do you recall what me said?
16 A. Denial. The same thing as Father had
17 said, pretty much the same thing.
18 Q. Did Father admit that he frequented the
19 Ranch but just say that he'd gone there for a drink?
20 A. He said he had been to -- I don't know the name
21 of the place, but he'd been to this so-called gay bar, and
22 he had gone there for a drink and wondered why that
was so
23 wrong, if people go to other bars.
24 I said, "It's not the same, and you will not visit
25 that again, because it's not the place for any Roman
Page 63
1 Catholic priest, period."
2 Q. Did you ever, Archbishop, issue a memo or letter
3 to the priests of the archidocese telling them not to
4 frequent gay bars?
5 A. To the best of my recollection, I never issued
6 any memo. I can't recall that. I was very strong in
7 voicing my opinion after confronting these men. And I
8 took occasion to mention it to a meeting of one -- I think
9 it was a personnel board meeting, and I was quite upset
10 over it. But I don't recall issuing a memo.
11 Q. Were there any other priests beyond and
12 whom you personally confronted and said, "Don't go
13 to gay bars anymore"?
14 A. I confronted about four or five that you had on
15 that list, and Father Richard Olona was confronting
others
16 at the same time.
17 I think Father , I think, was one that I
18 had confronted, and Father , I think, was another.
19 Those four, I remember.
20 Q. And do you know who Father Olona extended the
21 same message to?
22 A. I don't recall the rest of the list right
23 offhand. I just don't recall. If you have a list or
24 something that would help to remind me, but I just don't
25 recall it.
Page 64
1 Q. Father Olona at that time was your chancellor, I
2 take it?
3 A. Yes, he was.
4 Q. Did the allegation that there were or may have
5 been gay priests in this archidocese come as a surprise to
6 you?
7 A. It came as surprise in reference to the number
8 that you have indicated. I had heard references by
9 priests, just chit-chat, but no allegations or no definite
10 statements. But I had heard a reference to priests that
11 way in the past.
12 Q. There is a book that has been out for a while
13 called, Gay Priests. Have you ever read that?
14 A. No, I have not.
15 Q. What was your policy when you found out that a
16 priest of your archidocese was gay? Was it just to
simply
17 tell them to stay out of gay bars or was it more strong
18 than that?
19 A. Well, I think to understand any reaction on my
20 part towards any person accused of being a homosexual,
the
21 Church looks at homosexuality from a double point of
view.
22 The first point is that people who are homosexual in
their
23 orientation, you cannot blame them. In some instances,
24 this is part of their own nature. It's not an acquired
25 orientation. But if that individual is acting on his
Page 65
1 orientation, acting out his homosexuality, those actions
2 are forbidden as contrary to the virtue of the chastity
3 And considered immoral. So my reaction to these men
4 was to bring this to their attention. I did not ask them
5 directly if they were a homosexual or not, but I used the
6 occasion to make it clear to them what their
7 responsibility is before God.
8 Q. Have you reviewed your prior depositions
9 recently?
10 A. I tried to. We were very verbose in those
11 depositions, Mr. Pasternack, and they went on for hours.
12 Q. Was it both of us that were?
13 A. Well, I guess I talk too much.
14 Q. The reason I ask, sir, is that in your prior
15 deposition -- and that's what I'm thumbing for now. If
16 you don't recall it, I'll find it for you. I believe you
17 indicated that the number of priest sex offenders who
had
18 been brought to your attention was more than one, but
you
19 could easily count them on one hand?
20 A. Sex offenders?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Are you talking about homosexuals or --
23 MR. PASTERNACK: Let's take a break, and
24 I'll find it. Why don't we take a break.
25 THE WITNESS: Sure.
Page 66
1 MR. GOFFE: The time is 2:07, and we will
2 go off the record.
3 [A recess was taken.]
4 MR. GOFFE: The time, as indicated on the
5 screen, is 2:27, and we are back on the record.
6-12 (deleted)
13 Q. When your previous deposition was taken in the
14 case, on April 1, 1992, you were asked beginning --
15 on Page 150, beginning at line 10, "On how many
occasions
16 have you received reports or complaints of sexual abuse
by
17 a diocesan priest of the archidocese since you've been
18 archbishop?"
19 And your answer, beginning at line 13 was, "I'm
20 trying to go back. It's been almost 18 years and -- let's
21 see if I can -- allegations, I suppose that would be the
22 proper word, were probably made, I would say, four or
five
23 times that I can recall offhand."
24 The list that you've given us today, depending on how
25 one counts, was more like around 20. Can you offer any
Page 67
1 explanation for this apparent discrepancy in the
2 testimony?
3 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I might add, for the
4 completeness of the record, the Archbishop's testimony
5 ended, "I would say, four or five times that I can recall
6 right offhand, and that's just trying to make a quick scan
7 of my memory."
8 A. I remember the deposition, on that occasion, and
9 your question -- it caught me right offhand as in a sense.
10 I don't recall either yourself or myself having any list,
11 such as we went through today. I was asked to recall
from
12 my memory, and I think what I was zeroing in on, Mr.
13 Pasternack, were any cases that we had dealt with
14 formally, not just allegations or accusations, but, you
15 know, things that had resulted in some type of action.
16 The list that we dealt with today is actually quite
17 extensive. I don't know how many names you had. Many
I
18 said yes to; many I said no to. But it seems to me that
19 many of these people whose names that were included
on
20 there actually were not brought to my attention as the
21 archbishop but have since surfaced during all of these
22 investigations that have been taking place in the last
23 couple of years.
24 My estimate of approximately four or six was probably
25 close to accurate as to the number of cases that we have
Page 68
1 been involved in, but certainly not close to the total
2 number that we know now or that had been brought to
light
3 since that time that we're dealing with at this time.
4 Q. So do you mean to say that some of the people to
5 whom you indicated affirmatively a little while ago were
6 people that you've only learned about since the lawsuits
7 started to be filed?
8 A. Right, yes.
9 Q. A little later on, we'll go into each of those
10 people in some detail and see.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Now that we've taken a little break, have you
13 had an opportunity to reflect and see if there are any
14 other names that perhaps I didn't mention, but that you
15 now recall?
16 A. No, I didn't reflect in that direction, Mr.
17 Pasternack. But none came to my mind as you went
through
18 an alphabetical list.
19 Q. Okay. Well, perhaps it would be appropriate to
20 spend a little time trying to break down how many
occurred
21 before the lawsuits started being filed and after.
22 As you have previously testified, I'm sure that Jason
23 Sigler, as an offender, had come to your attention
24 A. Yes, surely.
25 Q. From the personnel file, I'm sure I can conclude
Page 69
1 that Arthur Perrault had come to your attention as a sex
2 offender before the lawsuits?
3 A. No. The memory that I had of Art Perrault was
4 that no formal allegation had been made against him
until
5 it came to my attention a year ago in December, I
believe
6 it was, by a instance. And I was brought into
7 that situation, and that is what formally brought to my
8 mind, to my memory, Art Perrault.
9 I was unaware of any former or previous allegation,
10 although I know that in an interview with one of the TV
11 commentators, he had a woman on who said that she
had come
12 to me, and I'm not denying that she may have come to
me,
13 but I simply could not recall, and actually right now, I
14 do not recall that. But that's not to say that she did
15 not come to me.
16 Q. Archbishop, yesterday, counsel for the
17 Archidocese faxed to us letters that had been written
from
18 Dr. Joseph VanDenHeuvel to you about Arthur Perrault's
19 sexual disorder in 1981, in 1985. Does that help you
20 recall that you did, in fact, know of his sexual disorder
21 in those times?
22 A. It does. It helps to this degree: That I had
23 asked Arthur Perrault to see Dr. VanDenHeuvel and to
24 continue maintenance therapy with him. And I honestly
25 cannot recall why I had asked him to begin at that time
or
Page 70
1 what incident had happened either in his life or in a
2 surrounding areA. But I had not -- at the time that we
3 had this interview, I could not recall anyone coming in
4 and alleging Art Perrault having violated that.
5 Q. Archbishop, do you recall even students at
6 St. Pius when you were a teacher there approaching you
and
7 telling you that Arthur Perrault had molested them?
8 A. Students did not approach me at St. Pius, Mr.
9 Pasternack. I was at St. Pius simultaneously with Arthur
10 Perrault for about a year to a year and a half at most,
11 and then I left the school. He remained. But students
12 did not come to me personally to complain about him.
13 Q. Is that something you recall and adamantly deny
14 or you simply don't remember?
15 A. Both. I have no recall of anything of that
16 nature. I don't know why they would have come to me to
17 begin with. I was not the principal or anyone in
18 authority to have been able to act in that direction. So
19 I just don't think that would have happened. Unless you
20 have some information from people who said they came.
But
21 I do not recall anything.
22 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, in the
23 interest of completeness in this deposition, if you do
24 have such information, we'd urge you at this time to
share
25 it with the archbishop, so that he can use that
Page 71
1 information to perhaps refresh his recollection of events
2 that occurred years and years ago, and maybe we can be
3 more complete and more accurate and assist you in
finding
4 the complete and accurate truth here. And he's willing to
5 do that, if you have any documents you care to share with
6 us at this time as to this issue or any other issue in the
7 deposition. The archbishop is happy to read those
8 carefully and review them.
9 Q. Archbishop, the Clive Lynn matter had been
10 brought to your attention before the lawsuits, hadn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the Ed Donnollan matter had been brought to
13 your attention before the lawsuits?
14 A. Except -- the Ed Donnollan matter was not an
15 allegation or an accusation. There was -- the biggest
16 dispute that took place, at least that I can recall
17 regarding that issue was a ranch for boys that he was
18 operating at that time. And if I recall correctly, it was
19 the --
20 Q. Hacienda De Los Muchachos in Farley, New
Mexico?
21 A. You've got it. Hacienda De Los Muchachos in
22 Farley, New Mexico, and I believe it was the -- or at
23 least a branch of the New Mexico Health and Social
24 Services, whatever it was called at that time, that had
25 contacted me about what they felt were serious
Page 72
1 administrative shortcomings in the Ranch. I had received
2 some communication from people I believe who worked
with
3 him at that time. I can't recall all of the contents.
4 But I know they were disturbed over the Ranch, and I had
5 to take serious steps, and I closed the Ranch, in fact,
6 and moved him out of that situation, so that whatever
7 shortcomings were occurring would not continue.
8 Q. And did part of those shortcomings include
9 allegations of sexual contact between Ed Donnollan and
the
10 inmate boys at Hacienda De Los Muchachos?
11 A. There was no specific allegation regarding any
12 individual boys that I can recall. I don't recall there
13 was ever any names given to me regarding that. There
may
14 have been, and I would have to see the documents.
15 Q. Do you remember generally allegations having
16 been made about sexual contact between Father Ed and
the
17 boys?
18 A. There may have been general allegations made. I
19 would have to say that, yes.
20 Q. And that was before lawsuits started being
21 filed?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Because you closed down Father Ed's by about
24 1970 -- excuse me 1976, didn't you?
25 A. '76, I think that's about the time it was. I
Page 73
1 don't recall exactly when, but I think it was around '76.
2 But Father Ed Donnollan would not have been one I
3 would have put in that category when I was trying to
think
4 back as to the number of people. He just did not occur to
5 me.
6 Q. The events with Roger Martinez, fathering the
7 child, that would have been before the lawsuits started
8 being filed?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And I presume that you made sure that he
11 acknowledged paternity and paid child support?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The events with John Esquivel would have
14 occurred before the lawsuits and these cases started
being
15 filed, wouldn't they?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And did John Esquivel, also at your direction,
18 acknowledge paternity and pay child support?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You know he's under indictment now, don't you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Yes. All right. And Sabine Griego, you knew
23 about those allegations long before lawsuits started
being
24 filed, didn't you?
25 A. Not before this took place, no.
Page 74
1 Q. Well, didn't you, in fact, visit him at
2 Southdown in 1991?
3 A. Those allegations were brought to my attention
4 in about September of '91, I guess it was, September of
5 '91. And he was removed from his pastorship
immediately,
6 and he went to Southdown, then, for his therapy, and I
7 visited there for the exit interview, which they always
8 ask the superior to come for an exit interview of their
9 candidates, and I went there for that, it must have been
10 in March of '92.
11 Q. The first of these lawsuits was filed in August
12 of '91. So you're saying that after the first of the
13 lawsuits was filed, but before the majority of them, was
14 when you learned about these allegations with regard to
15 Sabine Griego?
16 A. The information came to our attention in -- I'm
17 almost certain it was September of 91.
18 Q. Okay. In fact, hadn't you removed Sabine Griego
19 from Our Lady of Sorrows in Las Vegas and put him
down at
20 Queen of Heaven in Albuquerque because of similar
21 allegations?
22 A. No. Oh, no. No, that was a personnel board
23 action. It is customary to transfer our priests every six
24 to 10 years. They have that right. If they're assigned
25 as pastors, they may continue in that pastorship for a
Page 75
1 minimum of six years, or longer if it's judged that they
2 should remain. But it's not that they're going to remain
3 in anyone parish forever. So his transfer that took place
4 in our personnel board was like all the other pastors'
5 transfers. "You've been in that one area long enough. We
6 need you and your administrative abilities in another
7 parish that's larger now, and we're going to move to you
8 this parish." And that is what took place when he was
9 transferred from Our Lady of Sorrows.
10 Q. Did you learn about Bob Smith before or after
11 these lawsuits started to be filed in August of '91?
12 A. In effect, I had learned of Father Bob Smith --
13 an allegation had been made in the -- I think mid '80s,
14 around 1986 or so. And I did remove him from his parish
15 and asked him to go for treatment. He never returned to
16 parish work after that. In fact, it led to him being
17 placed in a nursing home, and eventually he died. He
had
18 been suffering from severe sugar diabetes and other
19 chronic illnesses, and so he died that way.
20 He had been dead for a number of years, I think, when
21 you asked this question, and his -- I wasn't able to
22 recall him to mind at that time.
23 Q. Did you learn about before or
24 after August of '91?
25 A. The allegations that led to my removing him from
Page 76
1 his parish took place in the fall of '91.
2 Q. And you had heard no allegations about sexual
3 impropriety involving Father before fall of '91;
4 is that right?
5 A. There had been one general statement made by a
6 lady, and I had that investigated by a team, I guess I
7 would call it, or a committee of three of our priests.
8 They met with the family, and then they met with the
9 priest and confronted him. And the final result was that
10 there had been, I guess, indiscretions. He had acted
11 foolishly, but they did not feel that there was enough
12 evidence to say that any violation of the individual had
13 occurred. And so he was not removed from his pastorship
14 lacking that information.
15 Q. Were these findings of foolishness made before
16 August of '91?
17 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: I believe it was
18 indiscretion.
19 A. Oh, yes, those that occurred, like I said, in
20 19 -- in the mid '80s. I don't exactly recall.
21 Q. And who was the three-man team who investigated
22 these allegations?
23 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: If you remember,
24 Archbishop.
25 A. You may have documents on that. I'm sure that
Page 77
1 it was probably in documents. I don't remember the team
2 right offhand.
3 Q. All right. Did you first learn of any
4 allegations of sexual impropriety by
5 before or after August of '91?
6 A. Before August of '91.
7 Q. ?
8 A. Not until -- in fact, the allegations came
9 against him after I had left in '93.
10 Q. Barney Bissonette?
11 A. No formal allegations had been brought to me
12 prior to that time.
13 Q. Any informal allegations?
14 A. Just general statements. He was no longer a
15 priest of the archidocese, had not been a priest of our
16 archidocese since 1983, and so I simply did not include
17 him in my own reflection either. He belonged to the
18 Diocese of Las Cruces.
19 Q. But had you been advised in any fashion prior to
20 August of '91 that he may have been a sex offender?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. PASTERNACK: Do you want to change the
23 tape, Mr. Goffe?
24 MR. GOFFE: The time is 2:45. This will be
25 the end of tape 1 in the deposition of Archbishop
Sanchez.
Page 78
1 [A recess was taken.]
