SANCHEZ DEPOSITION
Part 2A
1, Page 150-15, Page 157 (DELETED-repeat of legal
info)
Page 158
1 MR. GOFFE: This is the continuance of the
2 testimony of Archbishop Sanchez in case numbers that
will
3 be listed at the conclusion of this deposition from
4 January 12th, 1994. Today is January 13th, 1994. The
5 time, as indicated on the screen, is 9:22 AM. We are on
6 the record.
7 ROBERT F. SANCHEZ
8 After having been previously duly sworn under oath,
9 was questioned and testified further as follows:
10 EXAMINATION (Continued)
11 BY MR. PASTERNACK:
12 Q. Good morning, Archbishop.
13 A. Good morning, Mr. Pasternack.
14 Q. Archbishop, I want to ask you a few questions to
15 begin with about the relationship, if any, between
16 Servants of the Paraclete and the Archdiocese as you
17 understood that relationship to exist.
18 Do you know whether there was any time under -- or
19 wherein Servants of the Paraclete or Via Coeli was
under
20 the authority of the Archbishop of Santa Fe?
21 A. As far as I know, Via Coeli was an independent
22 religious community that was established -- at least my
23 recollection is that it was established sometime in the
24 early 1950s as a center of retreat for priests. I'm not
25 certain when they assumed their incorporation papers.
I'm
Page 159
1 sure the documentation would indicate that.
2 Q. I'm going to show you a letter which I'll mark
3 as Exhibit 2, which predated your installation as
4 Archbishop, but it purports to be on Servants of the
5 Paraclete letterhead to Dr. John Salazar, and says at the
6 bottom, on the preprinted letterhead, "Via Coeli is under
7 authority of the Archbishop of Santa Fe."
8 And I simply want to ask you if that refreshes your
9 recollection about any period of time when such a
10 relationship existed.
11 [Exhibit 2 was marked for identification.]
12 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Mr. Pasternack, where
13 are you referring to?
14 MR. PASTERNACK: Look at the bottom,
15 please, on the preprinted letterhead, on the bottom.
16 MR. WINTERBOTTOM: Oh. This is a document
17 on Via Coeli letterhead. Okay.
18 A. Via Coeli is under the Archbishop of Santa Fe --
19 what's the date of that, '67?
20 Q. '67, yes.
21 A. The only thing that I can imagine that's
22 referring to, if in fact it is, would be a canonical
23 requirement for religious communities to become what
they
24 call pontifical in nature. We don't have any particulars,
25 any information about the particulars of this community
Page 160
1 when they became pontifical in nature. But until they
2 become pontifical in nature, they then have reference to
3 the local diocesan bishop, not as their immediate
4 superior, but as a supervisor, much like he would be a
5 supervisor over any Catholic group of men or Catholic
6 group of women who might be organized in the
Archdiocese.
7 Until that -- until they're recognized as a
8 pontifical community, they are considered to be a group
of
9 pious men or a group of pious women who have organized
10 together for some specific purpose, and they have to
have
11 like a spiritual director, a spiritual guide, and canon
12 law names the local ordinary, the local bishop, as that
13 person.
14 When the time comes that that group, both in numbers
15 and in their mission, are able to receive the permission
16 or the approval of the Holy Sea to be named a pontifical
17 religious community. Until that time, they're considered
18 to be under the direction of the code of canon law,
which
19 calls, then, for the local bishop to have that spiritual
20 reflection with them as to their activity, whether it be
21 an organization like the Servants of the Paraclete or
22 whether it be an organization like local Knights of
23 Columbus or some other organization that is organized
for
24 the purpose of good works within the diocese.
25 Q. Would a shorthand way of describing it be that
Page 161
1 until they get officially recognized by the Pope as their
2 own community that reports directly to the Pope, they
3 report to the local archbishop?
4 A. Not so much reporting, because they're
5 independent, but he has sort of like the -- I guess
6 responsibility for their spiritual activity. If they
7 begin to deal in things which are contrary to Church
8 teaching, it would be his responsibility to say, "Hey,
9 that's contrary to Church teaching."
10 Q. Do you know if and when Paraclete became
11 directly recognized by the Pope and was no longer under
12 the authority of the Archbishop of Santa Fe?
13 A. I'm sure they were approved, but I don't have
14 any recollection when that date was, Mr. Pasternack.
15 Q. Are you aware of any time during which the
16 insurance that covered Servants of the Paraclete was
17 primarily designated under the name of the Archdiocese
of
18 Santa Fe with Paraclete being a co-insured?
19 A. I have no idea about insurance. That was
20 never -- I'm a cleric, and insurance was just another
21 areA. I have no ideA.
22 Q. When you were Archbishop, how did you view the
23 relationship between the Servant General of Servants of
24 the Paraclete and you, as Archbishop?
25 A. I viewed him as being totally independent of
Page 162
1 myself, because they had their Servant General. The very
2 fact that they had a Servant General who was their
number
3 one superior, they operated totally independent of the
4 Archdiocese of Santa Fe. I was never consulted about
5 their meetings or their elections. They held everything
6 totally independent.
7 Q. What is Bethany House on the Rio Grande?
8 A. Bethany House on the Rio Grande is a home that
9 was established, I believe, sometime in the 1970s as a
10 retreat house for priests. One of the priests of the
11 Archdiocese, who is now deceased, Father Carl
Hammer, had
12 spent several years working with priests around the
13 country in prayer groups trying to form centers of
14 spiritual enrichment for the clergy. They felt that this
15 was crucial.
16 And so when he returned to the Archdiocese, he
17 proposed that we would try to find a place that we could
18 designate as a center for spiritual enrichment where
19 priests could come and spend one, two, three days, if
they
20 could afford it, or longer, and simply spend it in prayer,
21 have the spiritual guidance and direction of Father Carl
22 Hammer who would be there and be able to enrich their
own
23 spirituality that way. And he envisioned it as serving
24 not only priests from the Archdiocese who might want to
25 avail themselves of that opportunity, but any other priest
Page 163
1 who might want to come in for that purpose.
2 Q. Was Bethany House on the Rio Grande, during your
3 tenure as Archbishop, under your authority?
4 A. It belonged to the Archdiocese -- well, it
5 didn't belong to us. We didn't own it, as such, for a
6 long time, but it was under my authority.
7 Q. What type of problems were you familiar with
8 that led priests to go to Bethany House?
9 A. It didn't require problems to use Bethany House.
10 It was a center of prayer. They had regular prayer
11 meetings for priests who wanted to attend every
Thursday
12 evening. I recall their own ordination date as Thursday,
13 the day the Lord instituted the Last Supper and the
14 Eucharist and the priesthood. They had special
gatherings
15 for days of recollection, where we would spend the day
16 together in meditation and reflection on one or another
of
17 the mysteries of the Lord. It wasn't necessarily a center
18 for problem priests at all. Anyone could go there for
19 enrichment.
20 Q. Were you aware of any occasions on which a
21 priest with an alcohol problem or a sexual disorder went
22 to Bethany House on the Rio Grande?
23 A. It's possible that a priest who may have had a
24 problem with alcohol or sexuality was asked to go there
25 for a period of time, not for healing purposes so much as
Page 164
1 waiting to be transferred or waiting for some other
2 appointment, whatever it may be. I can't recall any
3 person, you know, individual name, but it's a possibility.
4 Q. Is it correct to say, then, that you don't
5 recall ever directing anyone to Bethany House for
problems
6 relating to alcoholism or sexual misconduct?
7 A. I never asked anyone to go there because of
8 their alcoholism or sexual misconduct. I did ask priests
9 to go there as an interim between where they were
serving
10 and until their next appointment, but not as a center for
11 cure or spiritual help that way.
12 Q. Let me try to rephrase it. Did you ever ask any
13 priest who you knew or suspected of having an alcohol
or
14 sexual abuse problem to go to Bethany House?
15 A. You say, "to go to Bethany House." Do you have
16 in mind, Mr. Pasternack, a temporary visit, or did you
17 have in mind something permanent? I'm not quite
certain
18 what you're --
19 Q. For whatever duration.
20 A. My memory doesn't recall individuals at all
21 right now, Mr. Pasternack. But I don't want to say that I
22 didn't, because that's a possibility. I could very well
23 have. There were various priests, as I say, who spent
24 time in Bethany House for various reasons, most of them
25 waiting for an assignment.
Page 165
1 Q. Were some of them also waiting for transport to
2 Servants of the Paraclete or Southdown?
3 A. I'm trying to recall any individual instances.
4 I do not have a memory that says I sent individuals there
5 for that purpose. It's possible. I could say that.
6 Q. What is the Dominican Retreat House?
7 A. The Dominican Retreat House is a center for
8 spiritual enrichment principally for the laity of the
9 Archdiocese. And in recent years, it's also taken on an
10 ecumenical tone inasmuch as the facility is open to
other
11 ecumenical groups of other denominations.
12 The New Mexico Conference of Churches has used it
13 extensively. Various churches, non-Catholic churches in
14 Albuquerque, have asked to use the facility, as well, for
15 their retreats. But most of the time, it is a center for
16 spiritual enrichment for the Catholic people of the
17 Archdiocese of Santa Fe operated by Dominican Sisters.
18 Q. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the -- is the
19 Bethany House on Pajarito Road?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. And is it close to the facility that Servants of
22 the Paraclete operates on Pajarito Road?
23 A. It happens to be close to that facility, but
24 there is no relationship between the two. I would like to
25 clarify here that the reason why that property on Pajarito
Page 166
1 Road, which is now known as Bethany House, why that
was
2 obtained was through the generosity of a family here in
3 Albuquerque who heard that Father Hammer was looking
for a
4 place. They owned that property and offered it, then, to
5 the Archdiocese for use on a rental basis and ultimately
6 with the option to purchase, if we so chose. But the only
7 reason that was selected was because of the generosity of
8 a donor.
9 Q. So was the Servants of the Paraclete facility on
10 Pajarito already there at the time that Bethany House
was
11 opened?
12 A. Oh, it had been there for many years, yes.
13 Q. What was your understanding of the function of
14 the Servants of the Paraclete facility on Pajarito Road
15 during the time that you were Archbishop?
16 A. The facility on Pajarito Road operated by the
17 Servants of the Paraclete -- I believe it's commonly
18 referred to as simply "the VillA." I had the
19 understanding that it was a center perhaps with two
20 purposes: One, to accommodate several senior priests
from
21 throughout the country who needed at least minimal
care to
22 see that they were not eating foods that would be
harmful
23 to them -- many were diabetic in their advanced age --
and
24 to see that they would take the proper medicines and
25 prescriptions at the proper times. They had several men
Page 167
1 there who were, in a sense, dependent upon others for
2 that, so they could go there. That was one aspect of it,
3 as I recall.
4 The second aspect was that it would also serve as a
5 house to accommodate those priests who had attended
their
6 program in Jemez Springs, and having completed the
7 program, the center at the Villa would be like a halfway
8 house or a station where they would be allowed to remain
9 for whatever period of time that they had designated
10 before returning them to their own diocese, or whatever
11 ultimate decision was made for them.
12 Q. Now, when you say halfway house for those who
13 had attended the Paraclete program in Jemez, would
that
14 include those who attended for substance abuse
problems
15 like alcoholism?
16 A. I believe it did, because to the best of my
17 recollection -- and I was not -- I did not have intimate
18 knowledge of the Servants of the Paraclete in those
years,
19 but it was my understanding, especially in the early '70s
20 and I suppose in the '60s, as well, that they did have a
21 facility -- they were trying to treat alcoholic problems,
22 and that was a center in Jemez Springs where they
would
23 treat priests who had suffered from alcoholism. And I
24 would imagine, then, that if the Villa was opened by
that
25 time -- I have no idea when it was started. But if it was
Page 168
1 opened, it would have served as a halfway house between
2 the treatment center and the return to their own diocese.
3 Q. And to your knowledge, did it also serve as a
4 halfway house between Servants of the Paraclete's
5 treatment program for those who had been accused of
sexual
6 misconduct and a return to society?
7 A. I would imagine it served as a halfway house for
8 any program that they had at Jemez Springs. I think that
9 was its purpose. I'm not certain how extensive their work
10 was with sexual misconduct cases in the '60s or early
11 '70s. As I say, I'm simply not aware of their programs.
12 They existed quite independent of myself, and my
13 relationship was more of a cordial one to their superior.
14 Q. By the time you became Archbishop, or within a
15 short period thereafter, you knew, did you not, that
16 Paraclete was providing rehabilitative services to priests
17 who had been accused of sexual offenses?
18 A. I would say that I was aware that that was part
19 of their program. But I can honestly say, my recollection
20 is that their services seemed to me to be principally
21 directed toward alcoholism and towards a geriatric
program
22 for priests who seemed to have a dependency and had
no
23 other place to stay in this country, and they would
come,
24 and many stayed there, and many have died there.
25 Q. But part of what you knew was that they provided
Page 169
1 services for sexual offenders?
2 A. Yes, I said that, yes.
3 Q. Now, during the time that you were Archbishop,
4 did you on occasion receive requests from Servants of the
5 Paraclete to have people in their treatment programs
serve
6 in supply ministry throughout the Archdiocese?
7 A. Request was made from time to time whether I
8 would be able to accommodate a priest for a period of
9 three weeks or three months, whatever period, and I
10 believe the majority of the time -- and I'm trying to
11 remember any individual. My reply was that we simply
did
12 not have the facilities to be able to accommodate
priests
13 who were in a halfway situation. I felt that that was a
14 responsibility that I could not accept. But requests were
15 made.
16 Q. I just want to make sure that I understand you,
17 and it's clear to those who may someday see this tape.
18 A. Sure.
19 Q. Are you saying that you don't recall any
20 situation during your tenure as Archbishop where
Paraclete
21 asked you if one of their guests could serve in a supply
22 ministry, and you gave permission for that?
23 A. No, sir, I'm saying that I do recall the
24 requests being made. I'm trying to recall whether
25 permission was given to any individual. I believe that
Page 170
1 the majority of the time, I replied apologetically that we
2 were unable to accommodate the request.
3 Q. If the Archdiocese had a situation where a
4 priest was in an outpost like you were in early in your
5 priesthood, Mosquero, and that priest would need to take
a
6 vacation or attend to personal business, were residents of
7 Servants of the Paraclete ever used under your tenure as
8 Archbishop to fill in for the priest?
9 A. Not that I can recall.
10 Q. Now, do you have any knowledge of whether such
11 events occurred under the tenure of former Archbishop
12 Davis?
13 A. One event comes to mind. I learned about it
14 through the newspapers. I was unaware of the priest. I
15 had never heard his name before. I believe the name
was
16 Father Porter. And a newspaper reported that he had
17 spent, I guess, one or two weekends at Truth or
18 Consequences as a supply priest. And that's the only
case
19 that I can recall reading about.
20 Q. What was your understanding, while Archbishop,
21 of the Pecos monastery?
22 A. The monastery in Pecos is a -- it's an abbey --
23 you might want to use that term -- operated by the
24 Benedictine Fathers. It was originally operated by them
25 as a retreat center for general retreats, and then later
Page 171
1 became more specified in the type of retreats they
2 offered. They began to be associated with the Catholic
3 Charismatic Renewal Movement. I'm not going to take
time
4 to describe that, because we'll be here the rest of the
5 day. But they became known throughout the nation as a
6 center of retreats with that special aspect and
7 spirituality of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. It is
8 totally independent of the Archdiocese, and they operate
9 their own retreat house according to their own guidelines.
10 They make no reports to me about the retreats they hold
or
11 the number of people who are there. I'm always
welcome or
12 was always welcome to visit them from time to time.
13 [Exhibit 3 was marked for identification.]
14 Q. Archbishop, I am attaching as Exhibit 3 to the
15 deposition a letter dated October 4, 1978, from Joseph
16 McNamera, Servant General of Servants of the
Paraclete, to
17 you. I wonder if you'd take a look at this and see if you
18 recall having seen it before.
19 A. Yes, sir, I have seen that, yes.
20 Q. And does that suggest to you, Archbishop, that
21 at least on that occasion Servants of the Paraclete did
22 ask you if one of their priests, in particular, Father
23 Jason Sigler, could be used by the Archdiocese of Santa
Fe
24 to do supply ministry?
25 A. Yes.
Page 172
1 MR. KONRAD: I object to the form of the
2 question as it mischaracterizes Jason Sigler as a priest
3 of Servants of the Paraclete when he was a priest of the
4 Archdiocese of Santa Fe.
5 [The witness conferred with his attorney.]
6 A. I'd like to clarify that, if I could. Jason
7 Sigler had served in the Archdiocese of Santa Fe. He was
8 not an incardinated priest of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe.
9 But his position had been working with the Archdiocese;
10 and therefore, he was known to us. He was not a total
11 stranger, as might another person be, that the Servants
of
12 the Paraclete might ask us to accommodate. So in that
13 sense, he had been with us; although, technically
14 speaking, he was not incardinated.
15 Q. Was he a resident of Servants of the Paraclete
16 at the time this request for him to serve in supply
17 ministry was made?
18 A. Yes. The letter so indicates.
19 Q. And in fact, had he not been directed to go to
20 Servants of the Paraclete by you prior to October of '78?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And, in fact, hadn't he been directed to go to
23 Servants of the Paraclete by you because of accusations
24 made regarding sexual misconduct in Las Vegas, New
Mexico,
25 at Immaculate Conception Church?
Page 173
1 A. No, sir, I would have to clarify that. In 1978,
2 to the best of my recollection, the allegations that were
3 made against Father Jason Sigler were allegations about
4 his temper, his abusive manner, the language that he was
5 using both from the pulpit, as well as in personal
6 relationships, all of which were very insulting and
7 offensive to the people.
8 That type of temperament had been brought to my
9 attention more than once, and this seriously concerned
me.
10 My decision to send him to the Servants of the
Paraclete
11 for some therapy was based on the anger which he
seemed to
12 display which was totally opposed to the character that
a
13 priest must present to people when ministering to them.
14 Q. When this tape is seen and considered by a jury,
15 they are going to, I believe, be confronted with certain
16 factual issues which they have to resolve.
17 A. Yes.
Page 175
1-17 (DELETED)
18 A. Mr. Pasternack, in another deposition prior to
19 this one, you questioned me about Jason Sigler. I told
20 you that to the best of my recollection, he was sent to
21 Jemez Springs for the purposes of corrective -- for his
22 character of anger, and I have repeated that here at this
23 time. I would disagree, then, as to the reason why he
was
24 sent.
25 Q. And I just -- I simply want to make sure of
Page 176
1 that. Are you saying that you do not recall or that you
2 absolutely deny having confronted him prior to October 4,
3 '78?
4 A. As I remember, any denial is based on one's
5 recollection. I mean, that's where truth comes from. And
6 my recollection tells me that -- and I swear to God --
7 that all of the allegations -- not allegations but
8 accusations that people are making to me were that they
9 were being offended by his language, that he was
insulting
10 to them, and they felt that he needed help because of
11 this, and how could he serve as a priest when he was
12 turning people off this way.
13 Q. What people made those accusations to you?
14 A. I don't recall names of the people, sir.
15 Complaints about priests or what they say from the
pulpit
16 come in from time to time, and I don't make a log of
those
17 complaints. They were made oftentimes by the pastor,
and
18 would say that, "This man seems to need help because
of
19 his own anger and his temperament which was
offensive."
Page 202
1-9 (DELETED)
10 Q. When did you first make the acquaintance of
11 Father , if you recall?
12 A. I think I may have met him even in the 1960s. I
13 think I may have -- there are priest gatherings. He
14 wasn't a friend and never was close as a friend. But I
15 would have known him as early as the '60s.
16 Q. Did you know him at all in Rome?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Did you ever know whether or not he came to New
19 Mexico originally via Servants of the Paraclete?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you recall him serving at ?
22 A. Yes, I can recall that he was, I believe, an
23 associate pastor, assistant to whoever the pastor was
24 there at the time.
25 Q. That was before your installation as Archbishop.
Page 203
1 Do you recall him serving at when you
2 were Archbishop?
3 A. Yes, I recall he was the associate there, as
4 well.
5 Q. Were any complaints ever brought to you about
6 sexual misconduct by Father while he was at
7 ?
8 A. None.
9 Q. Our understanding is he then went to
10 ; do you recall that?
11 A. I recall he served at , right.
12 Q. Do you recall any complaints about sexual
13 misconduct on his part at ?
14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. Do you recall, up until, let's say, August of
16 1991, when lawsuits started to be filed, do you recall
any
17 complaints against ?
18 A. Not of a sexual nature.
19-22 (DELETED)
Page 209
1-15 (DELETED)
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. Briefly yesterday we discussed Father Arthur
18 Anstiss?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did he ever come to you and report any
21 complaints about sexual misconduct by priests?
22 A. No, sir, none that I can remember at all.
23 Q. Yesterday you talked a little bit about Father
24 Ed Donnollan and Hacienda de los Muchachos; and, as I
25 recall, you indicated part of your concern in shutting
Page 210
1 down that facility were allegations about possible sexual
2 misconduct; is that a fair summary?
3 A. No, I think I mentioned yesterday that the
4 shutting down of the facility was due to very poor
5 administrative directives that he had and practices with
6 the youngsters. There had been complaints about his
7 methods of trying to rehabilitate these children; and
8 ultimately in dealing with the Health and Social
Services,
9 they felt that his methods were poor, and that they
10 recommended that it would be shut down. And so I did
it.
11 Q. Did you yesterday refer to general allegations
12 of a sexual nature with regard to Ed Donnollan?
13 A. I don't believe I did. Maybe I did. It's
14 possible.
15 Q. At Page 70 of yesterday's transcript, I asked
16 you, "Do you remember generally allegations having
been
17 made about sexual contact between Father Ed and the
boys?"
18 And your answer -- and I'll show this to you -- is, "There
19 may have been general allegations made. I would have
to
20 say that, yes." If you'll --
21 A. Yes. Okay, thank you.
22 Q. And now that you've had an opportunity to
23 refresh your recollection --
24 A. Right.
25 Q. -- what, if anything, do you recall about these
Page 211
1 general allegations?
2 A. As I recall, the allegations -- or concerns
3 rather than allegations. They were concerns that were
4 being expressed by either -- if I recall, either staff
5 members or people who, I gather, must have lived in the
6 vicinity or somehow were related to the Ranch. They
7 expressed concern that his methods of dealing with the
8 children at times were severe. I'm trying to remember
9 some details. He seemed to have a sense of punishment
of
10 these -- these were juveniles, as I understand it, who
11 were provided by the State of New Mexico for -- I don't
12 know what you'd call it -- guidance or keeping. Rather
13 than in a juvenile detention center, they would be able
to
14 kept in a home. And so the Ranch provided that type of
a
15 setting.
16 But his method of dealing with those boys apparently
17 was different than people would have felt it should have
18 been. I think they had to earn good-time for themselves.
19 He made certain that they were either excluded from
20 certain activities or included. They had to prove
21 themselves.
22 But in general, the people did express concern about
23 Father's relationship to the boys. But I don't recall any
24 specific allegation, Mr. Pasternack.
25 Q. Well, yesterday when you were asked if there
Page 212
1 were allegations of sexual contact between Father Ed and
2 the boys, you said, "There may have been general
3 allegations made. I would have to say, yes." And I'd
4 like to focus in on these sexual contact allegations.
5 A. Fine, okay.
6 Q. What did you hear about sexual contact between
7 Father Ed and the boys?
8 A. The sexual contact that would have been in my
9 mind with that would have been any physical contact
10 between Father and the boys at the Ranch either in the
11 form of discipline, in the form of recreation, being
12 close -- I just don't recall if anyone mentioned anything
13 specifically. But they seemed to give indication that
14 there was inappropriate relationship, inappropriate
15 behavior between Father and the boys, but I don't know
16 what that behavior might have been.
17 Q. Well -- and please understand, I'm not asking
18 about discipline.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I'm asking, what were the allegations of sexual
21 contact that led you to answer the way you did
yesterday?
22 A. I answered in response to your question about
23 general allegations, and that's what I'm trying to recall.
24 I don't recall anything specific.
25 But the general allegations, the type of concern that
Page 213
1 was expressed by the people, may have included --
probably
2 did include, in their mind -- a concern for the proper
3 relationship between Father Ed and those boys.
4 Q. Whatever the concerns expressed to you were, did
5 it cause you to have concern that Father Ed was having
6 sexual contact with the boys?
7 A. It raised a concern in my mind. You know, the
8 people who had contacted me -- I'm just trying to
remember --
9 seemed to be very good people who must have lived in
the
10 areA. I think they had respect for Father Ed and were
11 concerned about the whole operation of the Ranch and
12 whether it should even continue. I don't recall them
13 zeroing in on any specific allegation of sexual
14 misconduct, but their general concern was his
relationship
15 to those boys.
16 Q. You have indicated that you had a concern about
17 sexual contact. Did you discuss your concern with
Father
18 Ed?
19 A. I know I met with Father Ed -- could I just
20 reflect a second?
21 Q. Certainly.
22 A. And try to remember. I know I met with Father
23 Ed more than once regarding the whole situation of the
24 Ranch, and I asked him specific questions regarding the
25 conduct of the Ranch and his relationship to the boys,
how
Page 214
1 he governed them, concerns about discipline. There was
2 also in the concerns of the people one issue that they
3 brought to my attention. It was apparently a room set
4 apart for TV, some type of recreation for themselves, and
5 they were concerned about what all was occurring within
6 that one room. And I know I asked him specifically about
7 any type of recreation center that he had for the boys and
8 what took place in that room.
9 I can't recall any type of reply on his part that
10 would have indicated that something wrong or anything
was
11 taking place there. This goes back 20 years. I don't
12 know. The best of my recollection, he gave me the
13 impression that his relationship to the boys was proper,
14 that it was severe at times and perhaps would be
15 criticized by others because they didn't understand his
16 procedures.
17 Q. Did you ask Father Ed specifically about whether
18 he had engaged in any sexual contact with the boys?
19 A. I don't recall asking him specifically, Mr.
20 Pasternack. I do recall asking him about the recreation
21 room, because that seemed to have been the center of
the
22 concern of people, and I asked him for an explanation of
23 that recreation center.
24 Q. Did you ask him if he was having sexual contact
25 with the boys in the recreation room?
Page 215
1 A. I don't recall asking him that question.
2 Q. Is it your testimony, then, sir, that although
3 you had some concerns about whether there may have
been
4 sexual contact, you didn't ask him directly, as far as you
5 recall, about whether there was; is that right?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. Did you or any of your representatives ever talk
8 to the boys at Father Ed's boys' ranch, Hacienda de los
9 Muchachos, and ask them if Father Ed had engaged them
in
10 sexual contact?
11 A. I did not speak to any of the boys personally.
12 I did ask a priest to visit the Hacienda for me and speak
13 to the people who were there to give me an idea of how
it
14 was being operated and so forth. I did not receive any
15 allegations from that priest in reference to his visit.
16 The Health and Social Services apparently would visit
the
17 home, or the Ranch, regularly for their own reports,
since
18 they had an outreach in that area of the state. It was
19 their responsibility, since it was a State operation, to
20 be able to inquire from the boys, inquire from the staff,
21 as well as from the director, as to the appropriateness of
22 the facility and its operation. If anything was to be
23 revealed, it would have been revealed to those officials,
24 because that was their principal responsibility.
25 I think the reason why people were writing to me was
Page 216
1 because the director of that home, or that Ranch, was a
2 priest, and they wanted to bring that to my attention. It
3 seems to me that the ones they could well have spoken to
4 regarding anything else would have been the
5 representatives from Health and Social Services
whenever
6 they came to them.
7 Q. Do you recall the name of the priest that you
8 sent to investigate the Ranch?
9 A. Yes. It was the dean of the northeastern
10 deanery of our priests at that time, Father Sabine
Griego.
11 Q. At the time you sent Father Sabine to
12 investigate Father Ed's boys' ranch, were you aware of
13 whether Father Sabine was having sex with any boys?
14 A. No, sir, I was not.
15 Q. Okay. You said that the investigator, Father
16 Sabine, talked to the people. Do you know whether he
17 talked to the boys?
18 A. I do not know that for a fact. I had asked him
19 to visit the home and provide me with whatever
information
20 he would have, but I don't recall exactly what his report
21 contained to me or whether he had visited with the boys
22 themselves. That, I don't know.
23 Q. After you closed down the Ranch, did you assign
24 Father Ed to a parish assignment or put him on
retirement,
25 or what?
Page 217
1 A. After the Ranch was eventually closed -- and it
2 took a while. The boys were removed quickly, but the
3 Ranch had to be -- it was apparently property that was
4 owned by some group, and they had to dispose of the
5 animals, as well as the other facilities. That took a few
6 months.
7 To the best of my recollection, Father was then
8 assigned to a parish in northeastern New Mexico, as
pastor
9 of the combined parish of Roy and Mosquero. In fact, I
10 had been pastor there myself.
11 Q. I understand that he now lives at Holy Ghost in
12 the rectory?
13 A. Yes, he does.
14 Q. Did you play any part in making the facilities
15 of Holy Ghost available to him in his retirement?
16 A. When I left he was not retired. He was assigned
17 as a chaplain to the hospital of Lovelace Hospital,
18 because Holy Ghost is close to it. And he was to visit
19 the hospital there and be on call for any emergencies.
20 However, almost a year prior to -- it must have been
21 around 1992, he was suffering his own physical illnesses
22 and was -- and had operations, I believe, on his legs or
23 so, which incapacitated him from continuing as
chaplain,
24 although he was looking forward to recovery, so that he
25 might continue it. But apparently, he was unable to
Page 218
1 continue. I was unaware that he is retired there.
2 Q. While you were Archbishop, you knew that he was
3 living on the premises at Holy Ghost, didn't you?
4 A. Oh, yes, I asked him to live at Holy Ghost
5 parish in order to be close to Lovelace Clinic, because it
6 gives him access to the clinic for emergencies just within
7 five minutes. He can report there.
8 Q. Holy Ghost also has a parochial school, doesn't
9 it?
10 A. Holy Ghost has a parochial school.
11 Q. And there are boys who attend that parochial
12 school, aren't there?
13 A. Boys and girls, yes.
14 Q. When you asked him to live at Holy Ghost, did it
15 cause you any concern that this man about whom at
least
16 there had been general allegations of sexual misconduct
17 with boys, and he was being asked to live on the
grounds
18 on the facility that had a parochial school?
19 A. He was asked to live at the rectory. The
20 rectory is removed from the school by a full block. He
21 had no relationship to the school or to the parish. He
22 was simply living in the rectory and was able, then, to
23 drive from there to Lovelace Clinic.
24 Q. When you asked him to live at Holy Ghost, did
25 you ever admonish him to stay away from the boys at
the
Page 219
1 school?
2 A. I don't recall any specific admonition.
3 Q. The rectory where he lives is directly across
4 the street from a playground, isn't it?
5 A. It's set across the street from a playground,
6 approximately a block apart.
7 Q. During the process of closing down the Ranch or
8 at any time thereafter, did you or anyone under your
9 direction approach any of the boys and suggest
counseling?
10 A. Sir, I was not operating the Ranch. The Ranch
11 was the responsibility of Health and Social Services.
The
12 only relationship to the Ranch was Father Ed Donnollan.
13 I did not know the boys. I did not know where they
14 were from or what homes they belonged to within the
state.
15 Q. They were -- for the most part, weren't they
16 Catholic boys from New Mexico?
17 A. Not necessarily, sir. That's an assumption on
18 your part. The boys that Health and Social Services feel
19 free to assign to any group home come from throughout
the
20 state and from any background. They are not necessarily
21 Catholic boys. This was not a Catholic home.
22 Q. When you suggested or directed that Father Ed go
23 live at the rectory at Holy Ghost, did you or any of your
24 staff issue any warnings or admonitions to the
25 parishioners at Holy Ghost that this person about whom
you
Page 220
1 had at least at one point had concerns about sexual
2 misconduct was now joining them in their midst?
3 A. No, I did not, sir. And I'd like to state for
4 the record that the issue of the Ranch took place in the
5 mid '70s. His assignment to Holy Ghost parish took place
6 about 1990 or '91. That's a good, whatever, 15 years
7 apart. And in all of that time, there had been no
8 allegations brought to my attention by anyone against
that
9 gentleman.
10 Q. Do you know whether Father Ed was ever a
11 resident at Servants of the Paraclete?
12 A. No, I do not know that.
13 Q. Did you ever direct Father Ed to any treatment
14 facility?
15 A. Not to a treatment facility. I asked him to see
16 a psychiatrist in town for the purpose of reviewing his
17 own attitude and his anger. He was a man that had a
way
18 of intimidating people because, first of all, his size.
19 He's a very tall man, large man. And oftentimes his
voice
20 would be very stern, offensive against people, and they
21 would complain to me about his anger. I asked him
22 specifically to see a psychiatrist in town about that, and
23 he did.
24 Q. Who?
25 A. Just give me a second. I believe it was Dr.
Page 221
1 Paul DeBlassie.
2 Q. And did Dr. DeBlassie send reports to you about
3 Father Ed?
4 A. Not reports. I never received written reports
5 from Dr. DeBlassie, although we did speak on the phone
6 about once, perhaps twice.
7 Q. And what did he tell you?
8 A. That he was working with Father Ed, that they
9 were meeting regularly, and would do his best to help
10 correct it.
11 I do recall him mentioning that the age of Father,
12 because he was not young, he seems to be set in his
ways,
13 that it would be difficult to change some habits.
14 Q. Did your discussions with Dr. DeBlassie include
15 any references to sexual activities by Father Ed?
16 A. No, it did not.
17 Q. And you don't recall getting any letters from
18 DeBlassie; is that right?
19 A. I don't recall getting any letters, no.
20 Q. Did Father Ed advise you during the latter parts
21 of your service as Archbishop, that he -- whether he was
22 sending out letters to boys that he had had sex with
23 encouraging them not to come forward?
24 A. No, sir, not at all. The only kind of letters
25 that I recall being mentioned to me were letters
Page 222
1 soliciting funds from donors because apparently donors
2 were helping to maintain some of the expenses and
repairs
3 on the Ranch.
4 Q. Let's talk about Father Esquivel, then, for a
5 minute. You indicated yesterday that Father Esquivel was
6 indeed "father" Esquivel. Do you recall approximately
7 when he fathered a child?
8 A. In the 1970s. Middle or late 1970s. Yes.
9 Q. And did he admit to you that he did that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you require him or ask him to sign an
12 affidavit of paternity and to pay child support?
13 A. I placed him in the -- I guess the
14 responsibility of an attorney, so that those items would
15 be properly addressed.
16 Q. Which attorney was that?
17 A. I believe, and I'm not certain, but I believe it
18 is a deceased attorney, Mr. Bingham. I think that was
his
19 name. I'm not certain. I would have to -- I'm just -- I
20 know that the attorney who served us in the very first
few
21 years died. But I'm trying to recall his name. But I
22 think that was the attorney that handled his case.
23 [A discussion was held off the record.]
24 Q. Do you recall the name of the woman with whom
25 Father Esquivel fathered the child?
Page 223
1 A. No, I do not.
2 Q. Was Father Esquivel required to enter into any
3 treatment or therapy as a part of the resolution of this
4 situation?
5 A. Yes, he was.
6 Q. And what treatment or therapy was that?
7 A. We asked Father Esquivel to attend a program at
8 Guest House. It was a program for basically alcoholism
9 and any other related features, and he attended that
10 program.
11 Q. What is Guest House?
12 A. Guest House is a residential treatment center.
13 Q. Where?
14 A. To the best of my knowledge, it's MinnesotA.
15 I'm not too certain which city. It may be Rochester,
16 St. Paul. It's in MinnesotA.
17 Q. Should we conclude from this that Father
18 Esquivel acknowledged an alcohol problem to you, as
well?
19 A. Oh, yes.
20 Q. And did he blame his alcohol problem for his
21 sexual indiscretions?
22 A. I don't believe there was any -- I don't recall
23 him blaming his alcohol problem on the other
indiscretion.
24 I don't think he linked that together.
25 Q. Was he required to perform any penance in
Page 224
1 consequence of having deviated from his promise of
2 chastity?
3 A. Well, I think the penance was to leave the
4 Archdiocese, leave the ministry, and to enter into a
5 program of rehabilitation. And they do have the spiritual
6 counseling that goes along with the therapy, as well.
7 Q. Do you recall about how long he was gone?
8 A. It was their full program, which must have been
9 probably close to six months, three to six months. I'm
10 not certain.
11 Q. And when he returned, was he given a job in the
12 chancery?
13 A. Yes. He was not placed in a parish position.
14 Q. Why?
15 A. We felt that we would be able to monitor his
16 work, see how he was going to conduct himself, and he
17 could do effective work for us at that time in the
18 chancery, as well.
19 Q. What was his position in the chancery?
20 A. His position was to be a liaison with the
21 Hispanic Catholic population in the Archdiocese and
with
22 any reference to the Hispanic population throughout the
23 country.
24 Q. Approximately when did he begin to serve in that
25 function?
Page 225
1 A. I don't recall the dates, but I would imagine
2 it's late 1970s.
3 Q. And by approximately what point was he then
4 placed back into parish work?
5 A. He served in that capacity for approximately, I
6 would say, at least three years. I don't recall those
7 particulars, Mr. Pasternack. I would have to see a
8 curriculum vitae of some kind to help just -- I don't know
9 if you have anything handy to help my memory, but I
would
10 certainly welcome that, so I can be as accurate as
11 possible for the testimony.
12 MR. PASTERNACK: Do you want to change the
13 tape now?
14 MR. GOFFE: The time is 11:46. We will go
15 off the record. This is the end of tape 3 in the
16 deposition of Archbishop Sanchez.
17 [A recess was taken.]
18 MR. GOFFE: The time is 11:50 AM. We are
19 back on the record. This is the beginning of tape number
20 4 of the deposition of Archbishop Sanchez.
21 Q. (By Mr. Pasternack) Archbishop, when Father
22 Esquivel left his work at the chancery, do you recall
what
23 his first parish assignment was?
24 A. I can't recall that. I was hoping I could, but
25 I just -- maybe you could help me out.
Page 226
1 Q. I don't know.
2 A. And I don't recall, sorry.
3 Q. Were there any complaints about sexual
4 misconduct by Father Esquivel while he was working in
the
5 chancery?
6 A. No. There were no complaints that came to me
7 while he was working in the chancery.
8 Q. Was there a time when complaints again did come
9 to your attention?
10 A. Yes. Complaints began to surface, if I recall
11 correctly, towards the latter part of the '80s, maybe '86,
12 '87. And the concern was, again, that it appeared he was
13 drinking, that he was resorting back to alcohol, and it
14 was becoming evident apparently to the parishioners.
15 I then confronted him again and required him to
16 return to Guest House to undergo additional
rehabilitation
17 in reference to alcohol. They have a separate program
for
18 that, for anyone who seems to be falling back into the
19 original weakness. And so they scheduled him for their
20 program, and he left and went through the entire
program
21 with them.
22 Q. At the time you sent him back to Guest House
23 where was he serving as a parish priest?
24 A. That's what I can't recall. I think it may have
25 been in Los Lunas. But I'm not certain if he was
Page 227
1 someplace else before going to Los Lunas. It may have
2 been Los Lunas at that time.
3 Q. Did the complaints that were expressed to you
4 about Father Esquivel in the late 1980s include
complaints
5 about alleged sexual misconduct?
6 A. Not at that time. At that time, if I recall
7 correctly, they were concerned about him not being
8 available, being gone, appearing to be influenced with
9 alcohol when he met with people. Anger was beginning to
10 make itself present in his relationships to people,
making
11 quick decisions about who should serve in what
12 organization, and oftentimes telling people that they
13 could no longer be members of this organization or that.
14 And there was just a lot of hurt, apparently, that was
15 taking place because of it.
16 Q. When did allegations of sexual misconduct by
17 Father Esquivel come to your attention?
18 A. That was raised directly around -- within the
19 last -- within the last two years. It must have been some
20 time in 1992. 1992 or 1991. I'm just -- perhaps '92.
21 Q. Let me ask you, you say it was raised directly.
22 Was there a time before that where it was raised
23 indirectly to you?
24 A. No. What I meant by "directly" was that the
25 complaint or information given me was they felt that
there
Page 228
1 had been some type of abuse of youngsters at the parish,
2 and that was a direct statement. I had not received any
3 indirect statement before, except regarding his personal
4 conduct because of alcohol.
5 Q. And who was it who brought to you these direct
6 complaints about alleged sexual misconduct?
7 A. It was a woman of the parish.
8
9 A. That rings a bell. That may be the name. I
10 don't know why there's another name that stays in my
mind.
11 I think the name Dolores, but I might be confusing them.
12 I would not be able to testify that it was certainly that
13 name. But in any event, it was a woman who brought
the
14 concern to our attention.
15 Q. By "our," you mean your?
16 A. Well, to the Archdiocese, to myself, and I would
17 share that with Father Wolf.
18 Q. And did you talk directly to this woman?
19 A. No. I had Father Wolf contact the parties.
20 Q. And what did Father -- did you ever talk to any
21 victim or family member -- excuse me, alleged victim
or
22 family member of alleged victim of Father Esquivel?
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. I take it you had Father Wolf investigate; is
25 that correct?
Page 229
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what did he report back to you?
3 A. He reported that what the woman had, in fact,
4 alleged.
5 Q. What did he say?
6 A. He said that while Father was at the parish of
7 Los Lunas that these -- that this woman, whatever her
name
8 was, said that her sons had been altar boys for him and
9 that they felt that he had been using drugs, alcohol, and
10 that they had been abused by him, and I believe
11 something -- and I'm not really sure about this, how it
12 went, but apparently one or two of the sons, I don't
13 recall, apparently are presently in a prison in California
14 somewhere, and they had informed their mother about
this
15 and felt that they wanted her to know that Father had
done
16 this to them when they were younger. I don't know
whether
17 they were invited to drink, but they did say that he was
18 drinking, that he had been using drugs and that he had
19 molested them.
20 Q. What action, if any, did you take when Father
21 Wolf brought you this information?
22 A. I immediately confronted Father Esquivel and
23 told him that these serious allegations had been made
24 against him and that I wanted him immediately to enter
25 into a full residential treatment program for him apart
Page 230
1 from Guest House. It was going to be a different program.
2 And I immediately made contact with the residential
center
3 in Toronto, Canada, called Southdown, and asked him to
go
4 there for that treatment.
5 Q. Did he go?
6 A. He went -- they first invited him to come up for
7 the evaluation, which he did. He went up there for the
8 full-week evaluation. They said they could not take him
9 for the full program until about two weeks later, after
10 Christmas.
11 And so he returned for Christmas and then went back
12 up again for the program. He remained in the program
for
13 two to three weeks, as I recall, and then called me and
14 said that he felt that he was out of place. He wouldn't
15 mind going to another program, but did not feel at home
in
16 that program.
17 My response to him was that if he didn't continue in
18 that program, he would have no further assignment in
the
19 Archdiocese. He chose to return home and to live with
his
20 father. I did not see him after that.
21 Q. When you confronted him with these allegations,
22 did he admit them or deny them?
23 A. I don't recall a direct admission, if he said,
24 "Yes, I'm guilty of that." I don't recall him saying
25 that. But his agreement to go to Southdown was what I
was
Page 231
1 looking for at the time, too. And he said, "Yes, I will
2 go, and I will enter the program and do whatever you ask
3 of me." I assume that may have been an admission of the
4 facts.
5 Q. Well, would you have sent him to Southdown to
6 the treatment program if there was doubt in your mind as
7 to the validity of the allegations?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So you believed they were true?
10 A. I believed that they were true. And the fact
11 that he did not refuse to go led me to believe that there
12 was truth to some of those allegations that were made.
13 Q. Did you or any member of your staff ever talk to
14 the boys who alleged that they had been molested by
him in
15 Los Lunas?
16 A. I did not, and I presume that Father did not
17 because these boys must have been in prison, is what I
18 recall, in CaliforniA. I believe that Father must have
19 spoken directly with the parents.
20 Q. Father Wolf, you're talking about?
21 A. Father Wolf, I'm sorry, yes.
22 Q. When Father Esquivel left his Los Lunas parish
23 assignment, what, if anything, did you tell the people at
24 the Los Lunas parish about the reason for his departure?
25 A. That he was -- that he had departed from the
Page 232
1 parish for treatment.
2 Q. Of --
3 A. No specific reason was given. It is not the
4 habit of our Church to make public the weakness of any
5 individual and say that someone is going away for
6 alcoholism or going away for this or going away for that.
7 He was going away for treatment at a center and asked
for
8 prayers for his success, his well-being.
9 Q. Did you feel any canonical or moral
10 responsibility to advise the parishioners at his Los Lunas
11 parish that you felt he had been a child molester?
12 A. My main concern with any allegation that is
13 brought to me that if a priest is being accused of
14 misconduct is to confront that priest and to remove him
15 from the situation immediately. And I was able to do
that
16 in this case successfully and did not feel an obligation,
17 then, to explain to the people in general the reasons for
18 his departure.
19 Q. Weren't you concerned, Archbishop, that there
20 could be other victims?
21 A. There is concern. Again, as I have mentioned,
22 parishes have a way of speaking to another and of
letting
23 any type of abuse be known. It wasn't as though they
were
24 going to keep it secret. His departure, I am sure, caused
25 a lot of talk among the parishioners themselves, and it is
Page 233
1 simply not our tradition to make obvious statements to
2 people about an individual, because of the situation
3 within the parish itself. Parishioners begin to become
4 suspicious of one another. It can become a divisive
5 issue. They begin to wonder, "Well, who caused this, and
6 what's involved?" So I have not made it a practice to
7 announce to parishioners the reason for any transfer of
8 any priest.
9 Q. Did you not feel that in your position as the
10 then leader of the Catholic Church in New Mexico, you
had
11 some sort of responsibility to see if this man had hurt
12 any other children and to try to help them?
13 A. I was leaving that situation up to Father Wolf
14 to investigate the situation with more -- more discreetly,
15 so as not to cause a division within the parish, but to be
16 able to inquire from this lady and any others that wished
17 to talk whether or not they wanted to come see us.
18 I'd also like to add for the record that this
19 occurred at -- after we had already established an 800
20 number, which was publicly made known throughout the
21 media, throughout New Mexico, that anyone who had
any
22 complaint or allegation against a priest could call that
23 number and make their report. So it was an open
24 invitation.
25 If I recall correctly, I had also established an
Page 234
1 independent commission for the very purpose of allowing
2 people to contact them anonymously, if they so chose to
3 share their concern with that commission and bring it to
4 our attention.
5 Q. By not warning the parish about what had
6 happened and seeking out any other victims, if there were
7 any, weren't you putting the unity of the parish and the
8 reputation of the Church over the rights of those who may
9 have been sexually abused by this man?
10 MR. KONRAD: Object to the form of the
11 question. I think he testified Father Wolf was instructed
12 to investigate and find other victims.
13 A. Yes -- it's not as though nothing were done. It
14 was not a hide situation. That was followed up by Father
15 Wolf with the family and with any other contacts that
she
16 would offer to them to be able to investigate if there
17 were other possible victims in the parish.
18 Q. But is it your position, sir, that it should not
19 have been announced from the pulpit that, "We have
removed
20 this man from your midst because we believe he's a
child
21 molester"?
22 A. That's right, sir, and I will explain briefly.
23 In our own moral theology, about which we spoke at
length
24 yesterday, calumny is considered a sin. That's detraction
25 of a person, spreading false rumors about an individual.
Page 235
1 But likewise, detraction from a person is also respected,
2 that gossip is oftentimes turned and twisted so that a
3 person's reputation is totally destroyed. But not only
4 the gossip against a perpetrator, but gossip against
5 people, against other children. It becomes an opportunity
6 to offend one another when that need not happen.
7 So the Church has not taken the position -- in fact,
8 has cautioned that any investigation that is done should
9 be done discreetly so as to preserve the rights of
10 individuals and their own anonymity and their own
11 preference to come forward as they choose.
12 Q. Are you saying, sir, that calumny is a bigger
13 sin than raping a child?
14 A. No, sir, I'm not saying that at all.
15 MR. PASTERNACK: Why don't we break for
16 lunch.
17 MR. GOFFE: The time is 12:06. We will go
18 off the record.
19 [The noon recess was taken.]
